The main post.
Redditors discuss the grammar of the term 'toxic masculinity'.
Men's placement in society.
Men and the 'big R'.
I was surprised when I first saw that thread and it was full of genuine attempts at on-topic discourse. LSF is hardly the place for serious discussion so I'd expected the usual bad jokes and trolling, but there was surprisingly little other than questionable takes.ID: gqmhlwvID: gqmnwgc
I think LSF has really changed for the better with the prominence of people like Hasan getting big. The subreddit has good threads and bad threads, but it's far better than it was even a year or two ago.ID: gqmp8dx
LSF treats Dr. K with a surprising amount of reverence, but it's all well deserved and then some. People point to him as the one that encouraged Yvonne to open up with her issues and helped everyone cope with Reckful's death. It would make sense to me that they would treat his conversations seriously.
chuckles I’m in danger
I talk a decent amount about mens issues and its so annoying to always get dismissed with how you are only bringing it up to "counter" problems women have in society.
And then they wonder why there are so many creeps and social outcasts
I mean that is literally what happens though, like these people will consistently undermine women's issues by trying to make things about men instead.ID: gqlws5a
I mean that is literally what happens though, like these people will consistently undermine women's issues by trying to make things about men instead.
Like how International Women's Day is actually "When is International Men's Day"ID: gqlxh11
And when they are informed that there is in fact an international men's day, they go "well nobody talks about it", which is funny since that includes them. Because they don't actually care enough about international men's day to even google it, and certainly not enough to celebrate it, it is all about undermining women.ID: gqn3pm7
Every days is internationals men's day ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗID: gqmxssb
I suppose their point is it is that you’re characterising a genuine point as inherently bad faith due to the people who make it in bad faith. It’s like people who say “toxic masculinity is just a feminist excuse to shit on men”, there’s almost certainly some feminists who do that, there pretty much has to be since there hundreds of millions of feminists so some must be assholes. Even if that person has only experienced that usage of the term it isn’t fair for them to characterise all usage of it as a bad faith argument.ID: gqmgchl
Its the essence of well poisoning, that guy might be totally genuine in his concerns over mens rights issues but it doesnt matter because 90% of the time when somebody does bring those things up they are trying to shut down the conversation.
"Toxic masculinity is a motte and bailey argument. You promote it as a way of saying men do it to themselves, and then when called out, you retreat to a more easily defensible position, that it's just gender roles. Well there's already a fucking term for that, folks. They're called gender roles. Throwing toxic masculinity on top of that when the distinction is basically non-existent is just giving a 60 year old sociology term a new slant that targets one sex more than the other. We all know why, too."
If toxic masculinity was generally just synonymous with gender roles then they wouldn't have such an extreme reaction towards it's conception. Also, while gender roles are related to toxic masculinity they aren't the same, there's certainly a gender role that men are supposed to be good at fixing things but that doesn't mean it's toxic masculinity in the least. It's still sexist to assume that men are less than for not being able to work with their hands but it doesn't make it toxic masculinity specifically.ID: gqmziip
I find the term toxic masculinity problematic in so far that at face value it assignes the blame on men. In reality it's the toxic conception of masculinity or what constitutes a "real man" , which can be ingrained in both men and women. At least thats how i understand it. I think we could have far more productive discussions on the problems at hand if we used a different term, a term that doesn't make men feel like they are attacked for being a man. I know that a lot of men and the whole of society would benefit from moving past men having to appear dominant, not showing emotions and not showing weakness because we think thats what society expects from a man.
Words have an effect. If someone feels attacked they are far less likely to be open minded towards an idea.ID: gqn7qh7
Yeah, toxic masculinity can be and is promoted by women as well as men, but the concept itself is valid and distinct from gender roles on their own.
It is interesting how pretty often leftists and left leaning liberals will hide legitimate points behind godawful messaging. And by interesting I mean frustrating
Nothing whatsoever surprises me about what he said. Want to talk about men's issues? No. Women's issues are more important. Now let's all get to work on the pink tax and microaggressions.
Ironic that he straw man’s women’s issues before launching into a discussion of very legitimate mens issues.
Edit: I'm not going to respond individually to all of these posts saying I don't understand toxic masculinity. I understand fully well what toxic masculinity is supposed to be, because it originated from the mythopoetic men's movement of the 1980s and 1990s. The term has deviated from its original meaning into, as I describe above, a lazy and ineffective universal explanation for all men's issues. Acting as if male suicide is so out of control because men are just broken women is absurdly wrong, and not only that, it's incredibly irresponsible. Some men absolutely could benefit from being more open about their feelings, but there are far more pressing issues like a lack of mental health resources ($$$), substance abuse rehabilitation programs ($$$), unemployment and poverty ($$$), and so on. All of these issues would take actual resources to solve so we don't need the same tired old spiel about it being OK to cry. We need money and policies that target male victims.
But as Dr K says, well, that kind of thinking gets you fired and ostracized.
I don’t think anyone has an issue with activists campaigning for resources to address those issues. Why does the focus of men’s rights activists focus so much more on complaining about feminist activism than it does actually addressing the real issues men face? Why do I hear so much more about “countermeasures” against women’s issues than I do about issues that are genuinely damaging men? Feminism does do a small part to address men’s issues by calling out gender roles and patriarchal stereotypes that are damaging to both men and women but it almost feels like this guy is mad that feminism isn’t also funding the resources men so desperately need. And the reason why is because the focus of these so called men’s rights activists is more on how to claw back some lost sentiment of privilege where feminism has evened the scales.
These men complain about being “divorce raped” when they’re asked to provide child support and came up with “financial abortions” as a response.
These men complain about false rape accusations and support policies that silence real victims instead of recognizing the issues we have with rape culture and common confusions regarding consent.
Can you kind of see why men don't want their "help"? Can you at least try to acknowledge that men in vulnerable positions are turned off by a movement with rhetoric so hateful it would be slammed as bigotry if the target was any other group?
It feels like the only “help” that would be acceptable is campaigning for funding for men’s issues without being able to criticize where the men’s rights movement has gone horribly awry. You’re not entitled to assistance from feminists with funding resources if feminists can’t trust you’re not going to funnel those funds into some other nefarious purpose that winds up hurting women.ID: gqmh08p
Is it still a strawman if it describes a real person? These views are held by real people, those people are in visible positions of authority (e.g. journalism, academia) so to dismiss them as strawmen seems dishonest.ID: gqmks2u
Sure, feminists care about “pink tax” and “micro aggressions” but both of those issues are symptoms of a larger problem with inherent sexism, and that’s usually how it’s framed in feminist discourse.
This is a disingenuous attempt to discredit legitimate feminist concerns by positioning smaller symptomatic issues as though theyre held as ultimately important in comparison to dire male issues like lack of mental health resources and homelessness.
A comparison would be saying “Transgender activists care about being misgendered, BLM activists care about not getting shot by police.”
Misgendering trans people is symptomatic of transphobia, a much larger and systemic disrespect of another person’s gender. Transgender people have been killed due to transphobia, no one in their right mind would say “misgendering” transgender people is as serious an issue in the context of mistreatment by transphobes.
Likewise, a symptom of systemic racism in how black people are treated by law enforcement is a serious issue and to highlight one “serious” plight compared a lesser concern to prove one group has it worse or better goes right against the point he goes on to make.ID: gqm28ef
I don’t think anyone has an issue with activists campaigning for resources to address those issues.
And even if they did, the response is to ignore them and keep campaigning. Any movement will encounter resistance, do they think feminism hasn't encountered a whole hell of a lot of it?
I'm a man and I most certainly give a significant fuck about the issues men face, but I'd rather abandon my beliefs and become a hermit before seriously associating with the men's rights movement. Fuck everything about it.
It sure as fuck doesn't help that the most outspoken members in their communities tend to be the kind of people who are anything but progressive, people who seem to think money, beer, and BBQ will solve the problems men face. Take something like mental health: I've had a seriously fucked up mind since I was a teenager and I've used the publicly available services in Sweden for a long time. What's Sweden? Oh yeah, one of the most openly pro-feminist nations on the fucking planet. It ain't feminism that's to blame, it's that nefarious concept that makes it hard for people to seek help and it tends to be stronger among men but don't you dare call it "toxic masculinity" because then you're going to trigger the shit outta the people who claim to give a fuck.
Men's rights activists, much like vegans have taken a genuinely important issue and ruined it by acting like a bunch of nutters who call anyone who's ''other'' an evil man hating witch/cuckID: gqmq68u
Men's rights activists, much like vegans have taken a genuinely important issue and ruined it by acting like a bunch of nutters who call anyone who's ''other'' an evil man hating witch/cuck
Wait, are we vegans now calling people man hating witches and cucks? Fuck, I knew I shouldn't have skipped the last meeting.ID: gqmqhwa
Nah only the witches for you lot. Eye of newt and such, not very vegan friendlyID: gqmur17
Of course a self hating White would be vegan, fucking caricatures man.ID: gqlhyde
The funniest part is that feminism is pretty much in their camp on most of these issues, but feminism has been so distorted into a "female supremacy" boogeyman that they couldn't possibly accept that.
The crueler side of it is that by crafting a feminazi straw-man, not only have right-wingers created a caricature that they can attack, but they're also producing those very same "feminazis". They've managed to convince people on both sides of the aisle that "this is what feminism is", but if you actually look at feminist academic literature (which <1% of people discussing gender issues have), they (supportively) discuss at length literally all the MRA talking points. They literally created their own enemies.
It's analogous to carpet-bombing terrorists in the Middle East, when those very actions motivate ordinary civilians to join terrorist cells. In your efforts to attack and destroy your enemy, you create your enemy.ID: gqmr4wz
Idk if it's true or not but what Dr K is saying in the clip is that institutional leaders, who define themselves as feminists, would fire him for speaking about men's issues.
Again, no idea if that's true, and of course I agree that feminism as traditionally defined should cover this stuff, but he's basically saying the opposite of what you're saying here, which is that feminists do not act against men's lib issues.ID: gqm3h7j
The funniest part is that feminism is pretty much in their camp on most of these issues
On some of the issues, certainly, but a lot of men's issues are just out of the scope of feminism. Not that feminists wouldn't care, a lot of men's issues are just completely unrelated to women's issues, of course.ID: gqliap4
Absolutely true though I think we should keep in mind that the feminazi stereotype didn't appear out of nowhere. There are people who subscribe to it unironically, as few as they may be and this thought fuels the nutter MRA types.
I suppose a problem with feminist academic literature is that there's so much of it from so wide a time period that you can pick and choose bits to frame it in any way you want.ID: gqnmj43
>"feminazi == strawman"
These people aren't strawmen, and never have been. They exist. They always have, often in positions of authority; journalists, politicians, academics, therapists, social workers and so forth.
What the fuck do you think TERFs are? You think that they exclude trans people from feminism for funsies? Of course they don't. They do it because they perceive them as either insurgents (transwomen) or traitors (transmen), and thus fair game for directing their bigotry towards.
They've always been a part of feminism. It's just that cowards like you didn't bother opposing their bad behavior until it lined up with your political goals. You swept them under the rug and let them fester. And now they are a thorn in your side, and if it weren't for all the trans-folk they cause harm to, I would have hoped that they'd stay that way forever, as an eternal reminder of your movement's monumental hypocrisy.ID: gqljhen
MRAs care more about hating feminism than doing anything about men’s issues. In fact, MRAs uphold the very sexist ideas that hurt men yet MRAs are too dense to see the link (e.g. MRAs complain about discrimination in custody cases but then claim that women are naturally more fit to be caregivers).ID: gqmuxx3
Exactly this. Men’s rights is fine, in a vacuum. But 9/10 on Reddit, men’s rights is mentioned as a vehicle to either minimize or criticize women’s rights.ID: gqljmpb
I dont think it's fair to lump the whole group together but the nutter MRAs do certainly have a hard-on for hating feminismID: gqn0axs
Toxic masculinity doesn’t exist!
I’m not as successful as my peers and it makes me want to commit suicide!
Uh that’s toxic masculinity...
Shut it feminaziID: gqlwkpq
much like vegans
Oh come on, this is such obvious bait, like literally for no reason you insulted vegans, you want to start drama.ID: gqlwq2i
Or maybe i wanted to compare them to militant vegansID: gqlhzx0
Welcome to culture wars in 2021.ID: gqloj4a
no, only ranting about dr seuss ):<
I always love when MRA’s complain about not being taken seriously and then immediately talk shit about gender pronouns
Why does every mens rights supporter have to be such a fucking weirdo? It’s a very important topic and one that needs to be talked about more, but the nutjobs atID: gqnyjy5
Probably because people like you immediately take every single thing they say as bad faith arguing. You're asigning blame and lashing out before you've ever read anything they say. That's literally the problem.ID: gqml1k6
It's pretty straightforward.there's an incredibly wide pool to draw from for champions of women's rights, because women overall experience discrimination based on sex throughout their whole lives.
On the other hand, you only wind up with the weirdos championing men's rights because the pool of men who go through their lives with constant reminders of their inferiority on the basis of sex is very small.ID: gqmm38v
Men definitely do experience disadvantages because of their gender, but MRA’s take that as a reason to hate women and blame them for their problems instead of improving themselvesID: gqmntj4
because women overall experience discrimination based on sex throughout their whole lives.
I would say the same happens to AMAB individuals just there is less of a limelight on it so it is less visible to even any progressive minded individuals.
While the problems are different the root cause is often the same.ID: gqli18p
I think what you're doing is funny, ngl. Sort of a Joe Keskold thing, right?ID: gqlmi6r
Umm, whatID: gqlk0gs
Umm, whatID: gqlj4vv
Even most men’s issues disproportionately affect men of color and LGBT men.
yeah doesn't seem too drama heavy, just a few weird takes. but overall pretty nuanced discussion