Civilian Flea Market Is a Good Idea

1 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:21 ID: nfi1qw

Jessekazam brought up this idea in his latest video (I saw him coin the phrase "Civilian Flea Market"), and I think it's pretty clever and at least worth trying out for one wipe. Essentially, no guns, ammo, or armor is sold on the flea market, meaning you can only buy or trade those items from dealers, or find it in raid. Barter items, attachments, medical, and provisions are still sold on flea market as usual.

This change favors good game sense, closely reflects the survival theme of Tarkov, and makes what gear you bring into a raid (and your plan with that gear) much more intentional. Tasks, what dealers offer, and loot spawns would need to change to accommodate this, but hopefully not by much. Here are some of the ways I think this would improve gameplay experience:

Adds more variety to gameplay and makes equipment more intentional. Players will have to mostly use what what guns and ammo they find in raid and this will change players' tactics and planning. How you move through a map and interact with players/npc's change whether you have a rifle, AK, pistol, or shotgun. This also means players will need to learn how to use this greater variety of weapons and ammo to increase their odds of survival. New players are also incentivized to USE the cool ammo and armor they find/craft than sell it. It will actually help players break their gear fear. Now that barter items are more valuable, players will be hitting a wider array of loot spawns and would create new places for PMC interaction. Makes PVP more intense. Accumulating high-tier gear would take longer and make it more valuable, adding greater tension to PVP fights. This also makes PVP more rewarding since other players engaging in PVP will also have good gear. Fits better into the world and theme of the game. Sifting through the ruins of a wasted Russian city for scraps to buy yourself some bullets or medicine feels closer to survival experience Tarkov is meant to portray.

Personally, I enjoy Tarkov for the tension and atmosphere. This change is elegant b/c it drastically changes the gameplay loop: it's more hardcore, fair for new players who won't have to run into chads as often, and it advantages players who play this game more as they'll have more gear and better game sense.

EDIT: I wrote that this would "[fix] the economy" but I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the economy. I just like the scrappier playstyle this could foster.

2 : Anonymous2021/05/18 20:04 ID: gylzv5j

I saw this and thought it was a great idea. If this doesn't work then expand the flea market to have what could be considered "civilian grade" weapons/armo

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3 : Anonymous2021/05/18 21:32 ID: gymcq3z

Literally anything that removes the ease of access for end game gear and ammo will benefit this game.

4 : Anonymous2021/05/18 21:46 ID: gymenrb

When the scav karma system is implemented in 12.11 Fence is supposed to sell uninsured gear right? and the price and/or availability of gear will depend on your rep with him. And you increase your rep by doing scav stuff - Did I get it right?

New Fence + this Flea market could be a good combo tbh

5 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:44 ID: gylnybb

I really like this idea, the only change i would have made was buffing loot spawns in raid and he eventually got that down around the 20 minute mark in thw video. This would both level the playing a bit more for casuals vs players who van play everday and i think it would also extend the early wipe feel a lot longer.

ID: gymaiwz

Frankly I think they should be buffing armou

/gun spawns regardless of whether they do the whole civilian flea market idea.

ID: gymayc6

I kind of disagree everything's too easy to come by right now solely because of the flea.

6 : Anonymous2021/05/18 22:44 ID: gymm16b

I've been disappointed that they haven't been testing more dramatic things related to the economy every wipe. The FIR thing was good but honestly they should be making dramatic changes each wipe to see what works. Like removing all top tier ammo from traders and flea, armor, etc...

7 : Anonymous2021/05/18 23:01 ID: gymo2cq

I think this and limiting what can go in gamma container would do wonders for rewarding pvp.

8 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:41 ID: gylnhkn

Yes they should get rid of the flea market completely.

This isn't at all what Jesse's idea is....

9 : Anonymous2021/05/18 22:23 ID: gymjebk

I'm a fan of everything tier 5-6 moving to found in raid only, no crafting, bartering, or selling it on the flea market.

ID: gymsb2s

Time consuming crafts would however help the lower playtime players. It allow players with less playtime to bring in ok kits, while people who play all day are forced to also try and use less meta kits.

10 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:30 ID: gyllz78

One of the purposes of the Flea Market is to help normal players with limited playtime compete with the grinders that unlock max traders within the first month, this suggestion invalidates it and widens the divide, doesn't it?

ID: gymakin

It limits availability for casuals, yes. But it limits availability for chads even more.

Casuals are not buying slicks/killa armo

/M61 on the flea since theyre 2-4x more expensive there. If they don't have it unlocked they don't buy it.

On the other hand chads have so much money that they will happily pay that markup over and over. The result is that trader limits basically do nothing and their purchase volume on the flea is much, much higher than casuals.

So removing their access to that supply is narrowing the gap. A casual won't run m61, but now neither will the chads (except occasionally, due to trader limits)

ID: gymeedk

Good point on the gear, but I wasn't thinking of that, nor Chads. I don't believe the Flea is the core issue, I'm convinced it's the min-max cheesing and Flea only makes it obvious.

ID: gylra4e

the video is a bit long but I really recommend watching it, on 1.5x speed if you wanna. It's actually a really well thought out idea.
End of the day, "grinders" will be better equipped and pretty much always more skilled than people who can't grind. That's just how every game is, there's nothing you can do about it short of introducing more randomness in. He approaches the video as "this is my idea, twitch chat, tell me why it doesn't work" and then they refine it from there. Just watch it, might as well have a full picture of the idea rather than going off of summaries here

ID: gymfms0

I completely disagree, what will fix this problem is eliminating min-max cheesing, secure containers, XP attribution, task completion parameters need and death penalties need to be overhauled.

ID: gylnr30

I see your point. Then it would be a matter of deciding what ammo is available for maxed lvl'ed traders. Especially if the best ammo are bartered, then I think on the whole most players will be on equal footing, but players who spend more time on the game will have that advantage. I would argue this change would do more to shorten that divide than widen it.

ID: gylqjgj

If the best ammo is bartered, and barter items are sold on the civilian flea, once you hit max level traders doesn't this become close to the current flea market but with extra steps?

Personally, I think barter items shouldn't be sold on flea for this reason - it feels like a tedious extra step to check third party websites for barter value to get the best bang for your buck.

ID: gymbgb0

I disagree, kind of.

Right now, I am level 36. I don't play often, but this is the first wipe I've taken seriously. After many failed raids and rage quits, I am finally here after getting the game just over a year ago.

I can currently purchase a jailbreak M4 for about 300,000 roubles including the gun. This is with two or three items not available through traders at my level. I use M855A1 which is provided by Skier and Peacekeeper.

If I didn't have the flea market, I literally would not be able to create this meta gun in the first place. I love using it, because it enables me to have better PvP and feel more confident in my playstyle. I'm enjoying the game in a specific way because the flea market enables me to do that. That's especially true with other types of gear.

The issue here is that, as far as I can tell, you didn't actually provide a real problem that this would solve. It's just a "solution" for the sake of being different.

Realistically, it disables the ability for less grindy or new players to progress. I can do a scav run and sell a ton of crap for 300k-600k roubles, which includes many things that realistically should be included within this scope (such as military gear, like an MGT or military circuit board).

On top of this, there's a slew of weapons that can basically always be purchased for cheaper on the flea than they can from a trader. It just doesn't make sense to restrict that.

The issue that Jesse presented was an "Economy" issue, but realistically what he's trying to solve is a game balance issue.

The beauty of Tarkov is that it isn't inherently completely balanced. Each gun is better than another, each gear is better than another.

However, there's always one common denominator: Player skill. It doesn't matter if you have access to M61 and slicks, if you suck at the game, you'll lose.

I literally killed a level 40 something, and a 50 something yesterday with my M855A1, with a Korund and a Ulach. They were wearing Altyns and Slicks with M995 in HKs. A flea market restriction would have probably made all our gear worse in that situation and done nothing to balance it.

Hell, many guns on the Flea are much cheaper than you can get them from traders. I was saving 10-40k on many gun builds simply by using the flea market instead of traders.

What we need is not this. While Tarkov strives for realism, there's no way it can be fully realistic. If it was, then I wouldn't hear birds chirping in the bunkers of Reserve, nor someone walking on water from across the bunker through walls.

Honestly, if it was fully realistic, then we wouldn't have the flea market at all. How is it realistic that you can get same-minute shipping on items and work out of your hideout like you're Amazon?

ID: gyma6bk

This game is made to be hardcore, the casual player has no place in it. Of course a guy who can only play 7 hours a week will be massively weaker than a dude who can play 12 hours every day, that is a no brainer

ID: gymf5tl

It's a fallacy to assume that hardcore directly correlates to playtime or grinding.

ID: gylnl9s

Depends on how much they crank up the in-raid items spawns.

ID: gylq2o5

Crank up item spawns 500% and it still won’t matter for me. I never successful extract lmao.

ID: gymcymf

One of the purposes of the Flea Market is to help normal players with limited playtime compete with the grinders

That has never been stated by any of the devs as the purpose for the flea market. Even so, this game shouldn’t be balanced around the bottom of the barrel just as it shouldn’t be balanced around the top players, streamers, etc.

There was a time when the flea didn’t exist and normal players made it just fine. There was more focus on unlocking your traders rather than never doing quests, as you can do nowadays.

ID: gymq97j

Some of the people I've played with never used the better gear and ammo they found, using the flea market to turn one good kit into 3 or 4 adequate kits.

Not being able to buy/sell gear on the flea market would incentivise players to use what they find, as vendor prices are so much worse. You'd have lower level players actually USING ammo that could kill a chad. It would also prevent sweaty chads from entering every raid with 300 rounds of the best AP ammo for their gun.

It would also encourage people to use various different kinds of guns instead of making a meme gun every raid. Might as well use the good ammo you find.

11 : Anonymous2021/05/18 19:53 ID: gyly7fq

The thing is the game is still in beta. So they could easily try this for 1 wipe and see how it plays out.

12 : Anonymous2021/05/18 20:52 ID: gym6yg4

It wouldn't change the game play loop because the underlying problem isn't the flea market specifically. The economy as a whole is the problem, so just touching one aspect of it wouldn't work, it's a complex system at this point. This would have a minor overall effect on the state of EFT's progress and I foresee a much more detrimental effect on people who rely on the flea market, which I'm led to believe is quite significant.

13 : Anonymous2021/05/18 21:24 ID: gymbk4f

This is a great idea. Lets try it for a wipe

14 : Anonymous2021/05/18 21:39 ID: gymdnl1

This system is okay but I think there are better systems available that accomplish all of the same things without having to put a hard lock-out on weapons, armor, and ammo from the Flea Market.

15 : Anonymous2021/05/18 22:28 ID: gymjzxk

I don't know why you would go this far, but still leave attachments on the flea market. Take those out too. Make builds diverse again.

16 : Anonymous2021/05/18 22:31 ID: gymkf18

The market is fed by FiR loot and crafting exclusively. Changing what can be traded does not affect what players have on average, only who has it.

The biggest effect of the market is access to high tier ammo from level 10, which allows lower level players to compete at all.

ID: gymnphv

I think this is a strong argument against Civilian Flea Market. To be honest, I really don't know how much top tier ammo would be concentrated among high leveled players relative to low level players. If it winds up that low leveled players are totally outmatched, then this plan would completely backfire.

I would hope the limited supply for high pen ammo and class 5 & 6 armor would make them used more sparingly and everyone would have to choose gun fights more carefully. New players could also get a leg up if decent ammo and armor is available at lower leveled traders, relative to this new system's meta.

I'd just like to try it for the sake of science!

17 : Anonymous2021/05/18 23:40 ID: gymsu0v

Here's the problem, though- until helmets and some armors are detuned, this won't be viable.

I know I harp on this, but altyns do not stop any rifle round from Tarkov ranges. Like, at all. Even 5.45 FMJs out of a 74u will go through both sides. Most of the helmets are comically overtuned.

ID: gymsza2

I didn't even know that!

18 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:27 ID: gyllem7

Yes they should get rid of the flea market completely. I’m doing a no flea market play right now and it’s much more fun IMO. Using fence to buy things also feels much more like an actual flea market since you have no idea what’s going to be in there you just hope it’s something good. The actual flea market is more like Amazon lol

19 : Anonymous2021/05/18 19:09 ID: gylrrge

It will actually help players break their gear fear.

Actively preventing people from buying weapons and/or armor from the flea market will absolutely not break gear fear. It will most likely make it worse.

ID: gylt5en

I think by limiting the supply for all players, they'll feel an impetus to use what they find (hopefully?). My concern about this idea is that loot spawns might need to spawn more ammo to support the weapons players find.

ID: gyltuaw

But you also need to think of the greater implications. For casual players, you aren't limiting their supply, you're cutting it off entirely.

20 : Anonymous2021/05/18 19:51 ID: gylxvuu

This defeats the main purpose of the flea market. Isn’t it to help new players out and it allows people to use guns they wouldn’t previously be able to use. Without this, quests would be even more difficult. Soooo

ID: gym5k9e

No the purpose of the flea market was to break the hold Offline real money traders were having on the game to get rare items, keys etc

ID: gym46eg

I think this change would really reward gameplay. If the only way to use a high tier gun is to risk going to hot-zones, it's now a huge reward if you extract with it. Since you can't sell the gun on the flea market, you're strongly encouraged to use it. If you want to use that gun, now all ammo of its caliber is valuable to you for the sake of using it. Different ammo types means different tactics. IMO, I like the scrappier playstyle

You're definitely right that tasks would need to change. Hopefully not too much?

21 : Anonymous2021/05/18 20:52 ID: gym6y4o

What a load of bullshit. How not to fix this broken shitty mess by OP.

22 : Anonymous2021/05/18 23:55 ID: gymuq5b

Let me tell you those streamers’ Intension: block new player/ low level players access to good weapon, ammo, and armor so they can kill them more easily which attract more viewers.

ID: gymvcb6

Let’s have good vibes here. Streamers do well when a game community does well

23 : Anonymous2021/05/18 18:58 ID: gylq3w1

Jesse is str8 buttcheeks at this game.

24 : Anonymous2021/05/18 22:20 ID: gymizgh

What is stopping those who dislike the flea from simply not using it full stop?

ID: gymjtv8

It's an inherently competitive multiplayer game that challenges you to do the best you can. Not using the market does not change the competition and adding your own arbitrary challenges is not the same as beating one somebody else gave you.

ID: gyml5ab

For me its shifting gameplay as a whole and moving towards varied builds. But this is more out of experimentation. I really don't have any major qualms about how the game is now. BSG is going to make the game they want to make and I like it so far.


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