Pestily’s talk on Cheaters/Hackers

1 : Anonymous2021/08/30 12:34 ID: peh6vm
Pestily's talk on Cheaters/Hackers
2 : Anonymous2021/08/30 16:17 ID: hay0gch

Pestily could have picked a much better clip from landmark lol

ID: hayihkf

? Why would he put a Sanitar clip in a cheater video

3 : Anonymous2021/08/30 18:13 ID: hayh9as

How is there not a system/program/whatever which can detect players moving at speeds, angles and so on that no single living person (not cheating) can? Also, how is there not a system/program/whatever that red flags players who have absurd kill counts, head shots and so on? Why does EFT not see "25 headshots" after a raid and throw a red flag up that this person is highly likely cheating?

And if the answer is "the game, as it is currently, doesn't support that" because of say client side movement then they need to change that. They need information pinged from the servers to the client to detect abnormal activity and flag (if not insta-ban) players.

I just don't buy the fact that cheaters on EFT can play with obvious cheats on (like aim bot) and get to level 40-60 and still not be banned. It's the same in Apex, players in Diamond ranked or higher with cheats.

I suspect there are ways to take a harder, more successful stance against cheaters but the companies just DONT WANT TO. You can't convince me Activision, with all the resources they have from the COD franchise, can't do more when it comes to at least slowing cheaters down. I suspect they have done market analysis and determined it's not worth the money. Same with EA and Apex.

I would just love to know how are people with aimbot, getting inhuman hit (and headshot) counts not instantly banned? Respawn already has a system that tracks hits and likely headshots, how do they not have limits set where if a player has more than XXX headshots or more than XXX damage/kills their account is suspended and put under investigation for cheating or something?

4 : Anonymous2021/08/30 16:24 ID: hay1gjr

I came here just to say, I think Pest is a swell guy- but it's bullshit to say "don't get mad at the people buying cheats". Fuck. That.

If you're someone feeding the "demand" for hacks- just fuck off. Whether it's RMTs or actual hacks- stop making a market for people ruining games. If you can't play legitimately, go find another hobby because video games are clearly not for you.

ID: haywyt1

I think he's trying to shift part of the blame towards the people who spend money on the hacks/services (who you seem to be mad at as well). I also don't think he's wrong in this, but the anonymity of the internet will never let it regulate itself like society is supposed to. People just care less about how they're perceived on the internet since they can get up from the computer and not be tied to their behavior anymore.

5 : Anonymous2021/08/30 16:43 ID: hay48oh

Ahh, well... If they're just trying to make a buck for themselves, I guess it's okay to ruin the experience for everyone else and put the original developers out of work...


What's next? Cheat makers are really philanthropists for impoverished nations?


Good thing all we have to do is ask them to stop!

Sorry Pest, this one is a hard miss for me.

6 : Anonymous2021/08/30 17:53 ID: haye9jp

This video is literally bike cuck meme but with cheaters

7 : Anonymous2021/08/30 19:03 ID: hayoi6w

Yes I can hate a 3rd world kid for cheating in a video game Pestily.

Ban cheaters and ban people who group with cheaters.

8 : Anonymous2021/08/30 19:49 ID: hayv5bb

We escaped. Uninstalled and moved on.

ID: hayyxwf

this is the way

9 : Anonymous2021/08/30 17:56 ID: hayesvq

omg what a load of crap Pestily...

Just because these people might be from the Philippines etc., doesn't magicaly allow them to cook meth for instance...

ID: haykev3

Pestily sees Tarkov as just a paycheck just like the cheaters

10 : Anonymous2021/08/30 14:43 ID: haxn1ho

I still intensely dislike cheaters - same way I intensely dislike the cunts who work in the (primarily) Indian scam call centres that robodial every phone number in the UK saying that the tax authorities are bringing a criminal claim against you and you need to speak to someone to avoid being arrested.

I usually stay on the line and either shout "FUCK YOU" down the line or talk to them and ask them why they're trying to scam vulnerable people who are likely the only people who will fall for it.

ID: hay6ucl

If I'm on my lunch break or something I love just going along with it and giving them completely false information. The last one I got was going calling about criminal charges for drug trafficking so I told him all about my "drug empire" and acted confused about why that was bad hahaha. He finally caught on and cussed me out

ID: hayas1u

I sometimes string them along too - one was trying to remote access my computer - was telling me command prompt stuff to input... so I pretended I was

When he asked me to read out some bit of data I spelled out F U C K Y O U

It took him about 20 seconds then he swore and hung up.

ID: hay8f15

As xenophobic as it is, it sounds like increased region-locking of games might help a bit. Of course you'd also need to block VPNs, which is something that is increasingly being done by companies like Netflix. An indonesian cheater trying to feed his family who can't even play with a Californian bad looking for a carry will no longer have an incentive to cheat. His Indonesian compatriot won't have the money to pay him for a carry.

I'd also like to see increased use of statistical-human combined enforcement. The next generation of anti-cheat software should be looking for statistically improbable patterns of play, and human reviewers should be able to drop into flagged games and immediately ban cheaters. For example, there's no reason why an egregious Warzone cheater should be able to play even a single round to completion before being banned.

I think with free games this would be very challenging initially, but if it became obvious that you basically can't get away with cheating in these games then the workload of dealing with cheaters would also fall. Subtle cheats like radars are a much larger problem. But there are things you can do there too. A big part would be sending to the client only the information it needs. For example, if the client can't see an enemy there is no reason why the client should even know that that enemy exists. This requires more work when implementing game servers to calculate occulders and omit unnecessary information from being sent down to the clients, but it is a necessary step to decrease the attractiveness of cheating.

ID: hay8u5y

Yeah I am certainly with you on the probabilities point. I am leaving towards region too. Whenever I see Chinese names on my EU server queues I prepare for disappointment. I appreciate some are blameless and some are just non chinese trolls trying to grief people like me, but still...

11 : Anonymous2021/08/30 13:31 ID: haxdi79

The second he goes straight into RMT talk it irks me. The intro shows how it’s every FPS game regardless of RMT. It might drive more people to cheat but the game would still be fucked even if you couldn’t RMT. People love to feel in control, to piss people off or to fake skill and reap the rewards, they will always be universal drives to cheat. They need a dual detection method, literal detection of interference with the client/access to memory, known cheat signatures and statistical analysis of player stats with bans/flags/shadow bans for extreme offenders.

I agree cheaters will always be a problem, today though you need a machine learning process to reduce the benefit of cheating even with undetected cheats. If you have to play within the boundaries of a legit players stats, then cheating is not as appealing.

The RMT boogeyman has been bsgs get out clause for a while now and streamers help push that narrative, also painting them as people in the Philippines supporting families? Cmon now lmao it’s laughable, these are people of all nationalities regardless of economic standing. So far all of the upfront cheaters I’ve seen in videos/interviews have been from the US.

ID: haxv3l2

People want to paint all cheaters as being from some far away place, when the reality is it's anyone. They're also organized and have their own community.

A year ago when Valorant was releasing, there was massive controversy with the anticheat and honestly I think it was driven by cheaters. Cheating is lucrative business for them and Valorant's anticheat is honestly top tier and cheaters didn't want to deal with it.

Cheaters have since said that it's not worth it to cheat in Valorant because all the undetected cheats are behind massive paywalls and Valorant ends up updating their anticheat 2-3 times a week.

ID: haxvzfq

I don't think the valorant controversy was organized by cheaters when it was giving tencent a potential window into your personal information outside of valorant, and was totally incompatible with a lot of korean pc cafes

ID: haxmlxe

I don’t know, the current RMT farms sound like the same “Chinese gold miner farms” we heard about when WoW was at its peak. The only way to get people to grind out this stuff and make a profit is if they do it in a place that is already super poor to begin with.

ID: haxu9pn

You don’t grind the same as wow on tarkov though, they just insta destroy the lobby and let people loot. Or loot high tier shit and drop it in raid, it’s hardly like you need to spent hours grinding. Plus most gold farms are from bots not Chinese players running around on one character.

Edit: Corrected 'bits' to bots. My b 😀

ID: haxfh8p

RMT does happen in developing countries 100% but the majority of cheaters are just griefers that enjoy ruining our fun.

ID: haybner

Don't forget hyper competitive moral free Chinese gaming culture.

I'm not cheating, I'm just better. And if someone can't beat me its because their cheats aren't as good - making me better.

ID: haxsziv

I believe it's a good balance of both.

The rmt cheaters intentionally avoid players at all costs unless they're doing a carry run.

RMT vendors can make 6 figures just on tarkov, and 20k the first month of wipe.

Sad thing is their laundering method is really fucking good.

12 : Anonymous2021/08/30 14:56 ID: haxovoz

BSG is not doing "everything" possible. They don't even take basic network security measures in their game. For example:

There's no network culling or network relevancy to prevent information about unseen players from going out in packets to everyone. This means you can read the location of every player in the server. The server even tells you where ALL THE LOOT IS! Why on earth should your client know about loot that's more than 50m away? Why should you be able to see into other player's inventories before they're dead? Their packet encryption is clearly a joke and a waste of server cycles, since it stops zero cheats (but probably causes plenty of desync - performance took a dump in the patch where packet encryption dropped). Tighter ping limits to reduce the number of people from the 3rd world queueing into EU/NA servers to cheat for money

There's also the undeniable fact that removing the flea market would cut down on cheating hugely. But that'd require doing actual design work to remove grind and repetition from the game, so it could be fun without people using the flea market as a crutch. Even just regionalizing the flea market (so cheaters on Asia servers can't sell things to NA/EU) would help.

"But what about carry cheats?"... Repeat carry users can easily be banned by looking at who they've queued with. Most cheaters DO get banned eventually. If you've queued up with multiple cheat-banned accounts, you get banned to. Simple.

They're not doing "everything they can" and frankly the existence of such low-hanging fruit is amateur and embarrassing. Personally I'm burned out on Tarkov largely because of the cheating epidemic, and I'm taking a break.

t. former AAA network programmer

ID: haxriri

Their packet encryption is clearly a joke and a waste of server cycles, since it stops zero cheats (but probably causes plenty of desync - performance took a dump in the patch where packet encryption dropped).

Not only did it stop rada

users but they ban anyone attempting to decrypt the encryption by trying to fetch the key, which nobody except cheaters would do.

Why lie? This shit is so easy to look up. It takes a few seconds of Google to see that packet encryption worked. Cheaters now have to resort to buying separate devices/computers to try and bypass the encryption, which again, can lead to bans.

ID: haxycxx

You're exactly right, we had a guy get invited to our tarkov group and eventually figured out he was using radar.

He has to use 2 computers , a VPN, a hardware spoofer that cost's $30 a month, and pay over $100 a month for the radar software. And buy multiple tarkov accounts.

He doesn't RWT or boost people. He just does it cause he likes it. Blows my mind, thousands of dollars just to cheat in a game meant to be hard.

ID: hazci8a

When I first got the game, I wrote a bot that bought all of the matches listed for < $2600 and then resold them for $6000+ during the busy hours. I ran it for days and had a level 3 account that had an extremely high trade score. I quit playing with it when they introduced the captcha, but I did look at some of the network traffic through wireshark and I was fairly suprised at how much information I could gather from just reading the packets as ASCII.

I don't play Tarkov anymore except for once every few months. Seems like the dev team is just struggling with their own success. They need to hire more project managers and engineers so that they can tackle more work.

There is clearly a lot of missing expertise.

ID: haxr49t

This is one of the reasons I think they are moving to unity 19, to address some of the foundational sins they committed when they were first building Tarkov and didn’t have the foresight see these problems.

ID: haxx4lj

Yeah, wake me up when they actually port to that 2+ year old engine update. They've been saying "next patch" every update for a year.

ID: hay7ofx

There's no network culling or network relevancy to prevent information about unseen players from going out in packets to everyone. This means you can read the location of every player in the server. The server even tells you where ALL THE LOOT IS! Why on earth should your client know about loot that's more than 50m away? Why should you be able to see into other player's inventories before they're dead?

Because, using your method, on top of all the other network traffic the game generates you have to add a request for loot with every step every player takes.

ID: hayhwx0

You don't need to add a request, the server would just look at where you are moving and send you a loot packet when you get close enough to "see" some loot. You wouldn't be requesting loot packets every step, the server can just crunch that.

ID: hayijgg

Not at all how you'd code it. Client sends updated position to the server as it does always, the server sends back updated loot as required. If minecraft can send the whole freaking world as you move tarkov can update loot.

ID: haxsy4f

seems like not a single fps shooter done shit then. strange.

13 : Anonymous2021/08/30 16:21 ID: hay1135

That's it, today I tilted. I'm done playing.

If I use expensive gear, they insta hunt me down and I die. If I don't use expensive gear and just try to loot, they see how much worth the stuff is on me and they hunt me down towards the end of the raid making me waste 40-50 minutes of my life for absolutely nothing. There is no way to play around this.

I've had enough and I will make sure everyone I speak to will not be buying this game. Fuck off BSG

14 : Anonymous2021/08/30 17:33 ID: haybekv

Hardware banning and kernal level anti cheat. It's a pretty good start. Make it harder and people would be put off.

15 : Anonymous2021/08/30 17:34 ID: haybm33

The summit vids is not a cheater, it's a peeker advantage. Just for you to know, both can be mistaken.

16 : Anonymous2021/08/30 19:07 ID: hayp34g

Why not just shut the flea market down? Game was good (better?) without it

17 : Anonymous2021/08/30 21:20 ID: haz89ul

The buyers are at fault fully.

I don't see any excuse, I don't give a fuck if you work 24/7 and can't play the game, It's not made for you and you shouldn't have bought it. If you're dogshit at the game, get better or stop playing instead of paying people for items that they'll end up stealing back from you because you're funding their cheats. It's quite literally the most braindead 0 IQ Pay-to-Lose tactic I have ever seen. Edit: Saw later in the video Pestily said this as well.

The buyers are the issue, they are the ones feeding money into this cheat-economy.

As for games that don't have anything to sell, the people who cheat in them are just degenerates, I don't see the fun in cheating in a game all about skill, it's the opposite of fun.

18 : Anonymous2021/08/30 14:28 ID: haxkzra

Damnit - I just about had enough of these pandemics in my life.

It's a pandemic of pandemics right about now

19 : Anonymous2021/08/30 19:45 ID: hayui1j

Get the fuck out of here. Stupid fucking video. Just another streamer who thinks that bc they are a successful streamer their word carries more weight.

Fuck cheaters. They’re losers who need to pay extra money to cheat at something that is meant to be leisurely fun and means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Fuck every cheater. I work. I have a wife. I play tarkov and suffer through it like everyone because that’s tarkov. I don’t need to support some poor Filipino kid who needs to make money through cheating. Sorry, in my leisurely time I’m not worried about the world’s problems.

Fuck off ya self righteous douche bag.

Once again, fuck cheaters.

20 : Anonymous2021/08/30 13:13 ID: haxbaoc

"BSG is doing all that they can"

X to doubt on that one. I understand that a developer is never going to be able to get rid of 100% of all cheats, but from a consumer standpoint there are so many gaping holes in the prevention system it's sort of embarrassing.

Also, as for the "you can't blame them" part - no, if you cheat in an online video game in order to give yourself an advantage like that, you're a piece of shit.

ID: haxf00i

I understand people doing it in developing countries but the amount of cheaters in games that have no RMT except for boosted accounts just shows how most cheaters are just griefing arses who enjoy ruining your fun.

At this point gaming on PC is becoming pointless, cheating and stupid GPU pricing makes me just want to relive the old days and play single player games on old hardware.

ID: hay1mfu

COD has nearly unlimited assets comparitively to BSG and they currently aren't even slowing down the cheaters, so I'll tolerate BSG doing the best they can because there's nothing else like it.

21 : Anonymous2021/08/30 14:27 ID: haxktx2

Honestly as far as RMT is concerned. I think the only way you’d stop it is by having BSG sell roubles or whatever themselves. This in turn would have an impact on hacking carries and the whole RMT scene. I think you’d still have wallhackers and the lot, but I personally think this would be the best way.

ID: haxmoje

Dude RuneScape do that with bonds basically sell money for real world money. But I think it would just destroy the game especially if reach level 20 they spend 50 dollars on let’s just say 15mil roubles.

ID: haxuf8d

Bad idea. Ruins the economy and causes more issues.

Suddenly it's okay to just buy roubles. Now it's full pay to win.

22 : Anonymous2021/08/30 15:21 ID: haxsar5

I'll preface this by fully admitting that I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and "machine learning" is very much outside my grasp of really understanding beyond a basic level like how deepfakes are made.

That being said, about a year ago I watched a video about botting in RuneScape - for those of you who don't know Old School RuneScape is absolutely covered in bots. Similar to Tarkov, these bots are being ran by both people in disadvantaged countries making money and people in more advantaged countries for convenience, or even in OSRS's case, as a platform for hobbyists. Similar to Tarkov, they play an absolutely massive role in the game's economy, probably way more so than cheaters in Tarkov.

What really interested me was that Jagex was working on machine learning that could be used to detect "human" activity. Furthermore, they claimed that what they were working on had the ability to use behavioral detection that was so advanced that it could not only tell bots from people, but it could actually detect if a player had changed computers entirely - that is, they claimed they had behavioral detection so strong that you could play on a computer in the US, fly on a plane to the UK, play from a different computer through a different ISP at a different time of day than your normally would, and it could still tell it was you. Just based on your unique ticks and behaviors alone. Here's the whole video that talks about machine learning PVP bots, and the clip from Jagex is around 5:50 in.

Now like I prefaced above, I don't exactly know what I'm talking about. But for a long time, I've been suspecting that the only way to really actually stop cheating would be to pair behavioral detection with machine learning that was trained using data from confirmed legit players. You would have to have some players be selected and/or opt-in to a very invasive level of access, run MOSS, etc. to get data to absolutely confirm players were not cheating. That would be one hurdle. Then you'd have to collect alllllllll of that data and basically feed it into some algorithm that could eventually determine what the bounds of "human" input are. Then you'd have to obviously test the shit out of it, and to avoid false positives, probably implement it on a flag-only level. If an account were flagged multiple times, either ban, suspend, or something else.

It would be a massive project in and of itself - the kind of thing that I think a dedicated anticheat company would have to specialize in, rather than BSG taking the helm on it. But from what I'm seeing, the only way to actually stop cheating is to flag people who deviate from "human" behavior.

ID: haxv8t7

Yeah, this would theoretically work, but it's substantially more work than what is needed and would be extremely expensive. Tarkov, and many other games, already have cheat detection systems in place where the goal is to detect people doing actions outside the normal realms of the game; having abnormally high stats (ex. extremely high K/D ratio), collecting items outside the map, moving at speeds faster than allowed/detecting instantaneous position changes, etc...

Systems like that already capture a very large amount of cheats, it's doing its job, the issue is that these people are making so much money they are able and willing to just purchase new accounts and start all over again.

Edit: I actually wanted to return to this comment after thinking on this more and watching the entirety of that video you shared; the video is really interesting actually.

I still stand by what I said earlier (that a tool like this would be overkill and very expensive for detecting hacks), but I want to expand on it a little more.

The reason BotWatch is so successful in what it's doing and the reason why it needs to be so advanced is due to it hunting specifically for bots and given the content of the video, very advanced bots that are starting to mimic human behavior. These can be a very subtle difference in the way a "player" of the game is behaving which adds to the reason why BotWatch needs to be so accurate. This is where I believe a tool like BotWatch starts to become overkill for detecting hacks. Generally, an account that is hacking has very exaggerated account metrics and behaviors that can very easily flag it for suspicious behavior, and the subtle behavioral differences that BotWatch can detect aren't needed for this.

However, potentially a tool like this could be used to detect if a player who has been already flagged for hacking is playing the game again and default their account to a suspicious state.

I think the best application for this level of machine learning would be for improving the AI of NPC entities in the game.


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