Should the successor to PvP watchdog have user end glitch detection to disable glitch kicks

1 : Anonymous2021/03/06 04:58 ID: lyufu4

To clarify, this means that if you are doing a glitch you will no longer be able to kick people for doing that glitch. As it stands fap run/estus cancel/estus refill/ladder fap/machine gun/splitleaf infinite are what is detected by bs. If you think any of these particularly shouldn't flag for kicking and just flag the person as having used it mention that in the comments

Also understand that this vote won't be a definitive "every glitch will disable kicking for it", the successor works in such a way that detecting anything you're doing is an entire new implementation because it handles incoming data only. So adding this would be a decent bit of dev time for Luke. This is merely to help advise on the opinion of a portion of the community.

If you care to, please elaborate as to why you chose what in the comments.

Edit: also understand there's no fourth "don't kick for glitching at all" option because Luke is solid in his beliefs that unintended exploits should kick.

Personally I believe that disabling kicks for glitches that a host is using is very important to prevent abuse in already cancerous ganks. But that's just one duelists opinion. Please make your own judgement.

Edit 2: just to be clear, this is LukeYuis ( one of two developers of ds3 watchdog) mod, and glitch detection is probably literally 1% of the total program. It's much more expansive than glitch detection which is really more of an afterthought. It's just that glitches kicking has proven to be controversial in discord circles a few people have asked in so the more sampling of opinions the better.

IMPORTANT EDIT (3): Luke has already cobbled together some user end detection, if you glitch you won't be able to kick glitchers. The program will still provide protection against glitches like machine gun and splitleaf infinite, and because of how blue sentinel works it may not cover detecting every glitch that a BS user is doing, but prevention is now definitely a part to some degree.

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2 : Anonymous2021/03/06 05:06 ID: gpvbad0

This is of great importance to multiplayer, so I'm gonna pin it /

. If you don't want it pinned let me know and I'll take it down.

3 : Anonymous2021/03/06 08:35 ID: gpwagpe

Personally I think this sets a dangerous precedent. Now I'll preference that I'm not a fan of glitches and think they should be patched. However, I do believe that this is taking things a bit too far; it's a slippery slope. There's really not much stopping other people in the community with the coding know how to make other mods similar to this; ones which may allow people to kick anyone using a specific weapon or using a certain setup.

There's also a difference between creating a 3rd party program to stop other users from using programs that enable cheating (CE for instance), and using said 3rd party program that's undetectable by From's hacker detection to start messing around with in game issues. That in and of itself is technically cheating. Sure there's the argument that it looks to clean up the mess that Fromsoft didn't but on principal you're essentially hacking.

Obviously you're free to do what you want; DS3 is 5 years old at this point so that makes it decently dated now. I do however think that this is wrong; it brings up the age of question of does the end justify the means?

ID: gq32gwt

yeah, shouldn't be able to kick people for using glitches - not even unscaled phantoms - which imo is one the scummiest things you can do. I mean whats next, the ability to kick people because they've high latency or an unstable connection? which btw, gives you a much bigger advantage than these glitches mentioned... I'll take someone who uses glitches over a laggard any time any day.

it's a slippery slope. I agree with being able to kick CE users but not people who use glitches. and, just for the record, I use estus cancel and occasionally refill against ganks of shitters, and I dont care if people use them too. wouldn't care even if I didn't use them. don't like it? BC out and go next, easy.

ID: gpwhpog

Jokes on you, they can already kick whoever they want.

4 : Anonymous2021/03/06 06:01 ID: gpvhrl7

Also as a semi related note, it should also prevent the user for kicking if their allies use those glitches. A host that doesn't glitch themself but has 2-3 allies who use said glitches shouldn't be able to kick invaders either.

If the suggestion to that scenario is "the invader should just have blue sentinel themselves so they can kick those phantoms" - an anticheat that is primarily designed to prevent malicious hackers shouldn't force itself on the community and become the only thing invaders can do against others who use it. Adding on, if the invader doesn't have blue sentinel, they'll have no way of knowing if they even would get kicked for retaliation via in game measures against said phantoms, ruining it even for those of us who have no issue with glitches being used on both sides.

ID: gpvnnc3

Detecting allies doing it and preventing kicks would be far easier than detecting the blue sentinel user

5 : Anonymous2021/03/07 10:08 ID: gq32sek

where's the fourth option "blue sentinel shouldn't be able to kick people who use glitches"? I'll abstain from voting as it stands

using a third party program to kick people for using stuff that is in the game is essentially cheating. I'm ok with the ability to kick CE users but this is taking it too far.

where do you draw the line then? it's a slippery slope

also, blue sentinel? naming something that is supposed to protect me against cheaters after the most incompetent covenant does not inspire any confidence lol. blue sentinels? more like estus delivery.

ID: gq3k3ra

Blue sentinels had balls in 1 and 2.

And I explained why there's no fourth option in the post :/ we already polled for that anyways.

Also according to the EULA using those glitches is also just cheating even if it's "in the game"

ID: gq3lesv

And I do agree it's a slippery slope that's why I cared enough to make polls to get public opinion about it. Luke is much more hardline than myself on his opinion of glitches.

6 : Anonymous2021/03/06 16:37 ID: gpz9g7b

Ok i'm not gonna say "this should fail fuck you" parts cuz thats nonsense.

First off it would be good for honest hosts but mostly will be used by ganks that doesn't need the glitches at all. For that reason you might add a system that saves which glitches host used to an obscure place in system and disable kicks for those glitches accordingly. Otherwise this can get exploited. Another thing you most definietly protect your code. So tools like corgi won't manifest.

Other than that good luck

7 : Anonymous2021/03/07 18:37 ID: gq4enxl

I am so torn about this entire issue.

To start, the root problem here is that From stopped patching their game less than 1.5 years after release. For a game that has survived to a great extent on the strength of its multiplayer, that's unconscionable.

Over the last 2 years or so, a number of game-breaking glitches have been discovered. Initially they weren't used that often, but once somebody uses it, then the next person feels justified in using it, and so on. Today at meta I think you almost have to estus cancel. There are situations where you have to estus refill, because the other team is doing it, and you put yourself at an enormous disadvantage if you don't follow suit.

One part of me thinks the best thing to do is to just let the game be what it is, and adapt.

The other part of me finds this hugely frustrating. For instance, on numerous occasions I've been invaded as a solo host, fighting my way through the PVE. I've had reds use all their estus, 10 siegs, and a blessing and THEN run off to refill their estus. This isn't a one-off either, this happened to me repeatedly.

Host teams can be just as bad. I've seen ganks where 3 players surround a 4th. 3 players use door shields to block a door, while the other player refills their estus.

I would really love to kick players like these out of my world. At the same time, I see the risk of the bar getting lower for kicking other players. Even today, there are players with older versions of some mods that let them kick players out of their worlds at will. It has happened to me numerous times, where I'm beating some host and suddenly I get booted.

There is no great solution to this problem, unfortunately.

ID: gq4vyrb

For the kicked player, a kick is the same as a DC or an Alt-F4. It used to be a point of pride to making someone so unable to accept a loss they had to stop playing.

Where does it matter then? When the encounter still continues and you're denied support. When someone kicks every invader they get home so they can gank or 1v1 you, when they themselves do use glitches. This is what the previous tools enabled. How I see it, Watchdog 2 will allow you to kick people who get an unfair advantage, only if you didn't already open Pandora's box and got an unfair advantage yourself. By setting your own game rules you cannot be mad at others for breaking them. It isn't lowering the bar as it is normalizing it for anyone who plays with you.

And glitches aren't only confined to meta. Glitches pretty much killed most of the activity in meta pontiff because it became such a long winded drag to invade there. Glitchers have dispersed and infected all of the game, and you can find estus cancellers at High Wall - where each flask is their entire half bar and they get to procc lloyd's rings 26 times in a row, even without regen.

I've met good hosts. I've met good invaders - and by good I mean good people, not just good players. I don't think anyone is at fault for keeping the game alive in their own way. But glitchers are just killing the game in their endless struggle to stack every advantage in order to win, and it doesn't matter on whose team they're on. Glitches just destroy the game for non-glitchers, because the advantages they give are so absurd that they destroy core gameplay concepts such as "spacing" and "timing" and "limited resources" and "soul level matchmaking", to the point they might as well just be a more convoluted cheat engine scripts.

8 : Anonymous2021/03/06 05:35 ID: gpvejpu

If luke is set in his beliefs that glitches are cheating then there's no good reason the program should enable people that "cheat" to "protect themselves" and only fight "honest players" that don't "cheat" since invaders that do the same "cheats" would be kicked.

9 : Anonymous2021/03/07 23:07 ID: gq5glna

I imagine the modder is doing this as they feel that these glitches were unintended by the developers, they “break the game”, and therefore using them is an act of cheating. However, shouldn’t that mean this mod should ban certain weapons as well since they are glitched too? Should the use of murky or harpe be considered cheating? Should using rkss or katanas be considered cheating due to the recovery cancel they have?

Are glitches that aren’t quite severely “game breaking” like the sun princess ring glitch or other regen glitches also a cause to get you kicked from the game or using the weapon art of the flameberge? While I think these glitches should get patched, I don’t think the use of all these glitches should be cause to get you kicked out of a game as treating something like the sun princess ring glitch to something like Gatling gun bow glitch does not sit well with me as one is clearly more severe then the other but both would get equal treatment. Should a person who does the sun princess ring glitch or flameberge be punished by getting kicked out of their game session?

If some of these glitches aren’t taken to account in the mod (as in deliberately ignore some known glitches), then it shatters the idea that Blue Sentinel is any form of anti-cheat at all as any sort of glitch should be a form of cheating and deliberately ignoring some of these glitches/cheats is antithetical to the purpose of this mod.

I think this sets a bad precedent that can encourage more people creating software or use software to kick other people if they feel like they are “cheating”. For instance: kicking people who use pkcs or people who use offhand crossbow or use gundyr charges or use seigs because they feel like these weapons or items “break the game” and therefore it’s a form of cheating using them.

10 : Anonymous2021/03/06 05:03 ID: gpvb19s

As it stands fap run/estus cancel/estus refill/ladder fap/machine gun/splitleaf infinite are what is detected by bs.

All this would be outstanding, truly. What about PPF? Downscaling?

You shouldn't be able to kick people using glitches if you're doing it yourself.

ID: gpvba1v

Oh yeah I forgot downscaling, there's detection for it in there. When I said estus refill I meant ppf.

11 : Anonymous2021/03/06 16:37 ID: gpz9mas

While I hate glitches and wish From patched them they are just part of the game now

12 : Anonymous2021/03/06 17:01 ID: gpzf0ah


ID: gq0av2t


13 : Anonymous2021/03/08 07:38 ID: gq6tlhq

The program will still provide protection against glitches like machine gun and splitleaf infinite...

If the belief is that glitches are cheating, why should it offer any protections from glitches to glitchers?

If it’s “well it can one-shot” - infinite has far more counter play than say, obscuring fap run to refill and resummon unscaled phantom - who can match the infinite’s damage through regular attacks.

ID: gq6ygkq

For starters the program doesn't have any cheat engine prevention for the user so the whole why protect glitchers from glitches thing is kinda null there.

Glitch kick prevention is an entire new implementation due to community input because blue sentinel was never designed to stop or detect the user cheating due to CE detection/prevention being massively unpopular in watchdog releases and Pyre.

It doesn't hook into the games code basically at all, it intercepts incoming packages so detecting a user cheating would be an incredible pain in the ass.

Also how do our infinites have counterplay against new players? Is every new pvper supposed to have to immediately look into the most broken techs and the ways we have to escape them, lest they be at a massive unintended disadvantage.

A new pvper doesn't know "oh, I just need to turn around and spam pers or stance and dodge" when they're suddenly stunlocked for potentially ages. They shouldn't have to look into it either because it shouldn't be part of the game.

14 : Anonymous2021/03/06 05:08 ID: gpvblpi

Blue sentinel is the worst idea ever and I hope it fails spectacularly.

ID: gpvd4yo

This is an incredibly poor take. Glitch implementation is a small part of it, it handles all network data and prevents a plethora of incredibly malicious hacks as well. And there's an ini option to turn off kicking for glitch flags as well.

ID: gpvdg1m

Also if you're running blue sentinel you will know when someone else is as well, so you will know not to glitch.

ID: gpvcr1e

Only if you're a glitch abuser who can't play without cheating.

ID: gpvfefm

Second this, hope it never comes to light and fails.

15 : Anonymous2021/03/06 09:26 ID: gpwmxm3

I don't know how people can justify glitches. PPF + estus cancelling + FAP glitch basically make you unkillable if your opponent isn't doing the same - and it was even showcased (unfortunately) in one of Jason Schar's recent streams:

That being said it's only if you aren't glitching yourself. Catching up with people who use PPF through the FAP glitch evens out the playing field a bit - so IMO every use of glitches should prevent you from kicking other glitchers because you kinda brought this on yourself, and because glitches aren't really their own counter.

On a side note, glitches being "normalized" destroyed the game. No need to space your heals and buffs, no need to worry to run out of heals, ability to oneshot your opponent and go through tears (machine bow) - all of these strip mechanics out of the game and bring down the game to such a low level that they make low skill play viable against non-glitchers, all in the name of "tech". All of them should be kick-worthy without exemption.

ID: gpyryp4

I don't know how people can justify glitches.

Because FROM nerfed invaders to oblivion and it feels really bad to lose to a worse player without being able to do much because they had the numbers in their favour.

Most of the glitchers are invaders who started using them to even the play field in invasions since you wouldn't need them in 1v1 duels. I don't see why one would need to get the timing of the estus cancelling down in an environment where estus use is forbidden for instance.

On a side note, glitches being "normalized" destroyed the game.

No. Ganking destroyed the game.

Go check invasion reviews from 2016 all the way to early 2018 before glitches were normalized. The conclusion was pretty much the same: invasions suck in DS3 due to the amount of advantages that the host has. If invaders had to deal with 1v1 or 1v2s most of the time it would be manageable but we know that isn't the case.

Hosts who want to grieve on invaders and know what they are doing can set up a way to be 100% invincible without even need glitches. Those players pretty much forced invaders to rely on glitches even before they started doing them themselves because rigging the game to their favour was just too easy.

And you know what? Those "shitters" are still the ones creating a demand for glitches right now as they summon unscaled buddies and use the machine-gun and dragon-body glitches to rig the game in their favour even more. And they are not the kind that will stop doing what they are doing just because people are upset. If anything, that gives them motivation to keep on doing it. And if you block them they'll have a bunch of alt accounts as backups since people block them very often.

I can ensure you NO ONE advocates for the use of unscaled phantoms or dragon body glitches and the twitch/youtube community will gladly shit on you if you do so. Even machine-gun is frowned upon when not used against someone who tried to use it against you first or someone who clearly is messing with the connection to gain an advantage (like lag-switches)

16 : Anonymous2021/03/06 07:36 ID: gpvw0mz

Is infinite splitleaf even good for anything but resurrecting Helicopter Man?

ID: gpw5d0u

I think you misinterpret what Splitleaf Infinite means. It potentially true combos the weapon art into itself for as long as the user has stamina, capable of deleting phantoms from full.

I do believe it's overrated though. If the opponent knows what to do, it can be escaped relatively easily by swapping to perseverance or quickstep and spamming L2. It's impossible to do if there are multiple people nearby as it requires time to combo them and repeated use of lock on. It's also still tied to hitting someone with a glaive's R1 to start the combo, something also quite avoidable.

It definitely is "strong" but there's much more counterplay than most people think, and it still gets beaten by faster weapons.

17 : Anonymous2021/03/08 00:26 ID: gq5pd3l

I fear for Elden Ring Pvp

ID: gq5u8u7

It will have day one shit straight from ds3, guarantee it. The netcode will probably be the same as well so we'll have packet hack memes on release


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