It IS actually that simple

1 : Anonymous2021/05/28 17:00 ID: nn2bt5
It IS actually that simple
2 : Anonymous2021/05/28 17:49 ID: gzs8i40

The real reason that you can't find your set helm.

Many players have complained that they can't find the helmet for various class sets. Why is that?

Are the players bad? Is it poor luck? Are the drop rates set low for those to make them rare? to make players grind longer? Do they only drop on certain maps? Do you need to complete a particular expedition? Is cannonball set too high?


The problem is that the game rolls the armor slot then it rolls the item; And, the item designers created a bunch of mostly useless helmets to add to the helmet loot pool.

I and several others I played with tracked our drops grinding ct15. Players have posted their Noah rerolls. It's easy to see it in the numbers once you get into the hundreds. There's a fairly even and consistent drop rate across armor slots and across the items within a slot. When one of the slots is very crowded, the drop rate of individual items within that slot is much lower.

As a player searching for one of these items, what can you do? Get hundreds of drops.

When it comes to PCF, ignorance of the problems this game faces is due to incompetence.

ID: gzsxrma

The main reason so many of us are pissed is they kneejerk nerfed drop rates first week of release.

The drop rates were amazing in the demo and even after the chest nerf.

If they left them be for just a month even, they would have seen so many of us playing with builds with the gear sets, continuing to grind for god roll drops and just trying to 100% the gear for the platinum.

Bugs and all we would all be enjoying ourselves. Even without emergency stance.

But instead they've murdered the drop rate to be so minimal all of that is impossible without borderline insanity levels of grind.

This isn't the game we were playing pre launch. We were basically lied to and given somthing fubar instead.

Believe me, all they have to do is say "we fucked up" and revert the first week gear drop changes and everyone would praise the heavens.

ID: gztc72a

My play experience improved immensely once I got my build viable. Made a lot of the damage issues and gameplay issues not really matter anymore. Now I just happily kill aliens and farm while not to concerned if I get that 1 last piece or not. I guess what I’m getting at is yeah if people had a little better loot drop and could get builds done a bit faster some of these issues would not be so detrimental to people.

ID: gzsz94i

What did they nerf? We knew from the demo drop rate was shit. But give them a chance. Get to wt15 not any better. Ct15 still shit.

I dont re-call them neefing it, or at least publicly saying it. Except for the chest runs they nerfed.

ID: gzthecg

The drop rates were amazing in the demo and even after the chest nerf.

CT 15 runs are way faster then demo captain farm. I went hours on hours without a single drop on captains.

3 : Anonymous2021/05/28 17:53 ID: gzs91qa

It means players want to spend their time playing a game, not fucking waste it.

Gonna look at Warframe by comparison. Oh boy I want the new Gara Prime that released this week. I gotta get the relics (RNG component), open them to get the parts (RNG component), farm the materials if I don't already have them, build them, good to go.

That sounds like a lot of work, right? You can get it done in a few hours, maybe a few days if your luck is bad. And while you target farm this you're getting other stuff, leveling what you're using, etc.

Outriders' loot system is atrocious. The fact that PCF is wasting time mulling this over in this way instead of even trying to implement a fix speaks volumes about how little they care.

ID: gzsc59j

Yep, the items are rare, but you can focus your time and energy to get SPECIFICALLY what you need. And also, as you said you can level weapons or a new frame while you target the loot.

ID: gzshrkp

That's an over simplified comparison.

In Warframe, plenty of people complained about farming Nidus parts or Ash parts for weeks and not getting them.

With prime frames like Ash prime for example, it took hours to maybe get 1 relic with the part needed. Then another hour to get void traces to power up relic.

Players would do this through 8 or 9 relics to maybe get 1 desired part.

4 parts are needed to build frame.

Players could be online 2-3 hours per day for a month and still not find the parts needed to build new prime character.

Not to mention other resources needed and the 3 and 1/2 days it take to build the parts and frame.

ID: gzsk54n

All of those things can be target farmed with reasonable expectation though. Which is the point. You bring the right kit to the right mission and you will get the thing you want roughly within a predetermined time frame. RNG has a say, but again, the right kit will speed things along so you have more chances at the thing.

Ash and Nidus both had farm methods that were trivial to execute. Nidus hasn't changed, it's still basically AFK farming with a good setup. Ash has been changed to a different mission type and is even easier to acquire.

You need a particular prime part? Get the relic it comes from. You need that relic? There are four categories and each has a specific few missions where it can be reliably farmed.

Players could be online 2-3 hours per day for a month and still not find the parts needed to build new prime character.

I'm all about defending player time from bullshit developer decisions, but if someone dedicates 60-90 active hours to farming a Prime Warframe and they still don't have it that's an issue with their method and efficiency. It flatly isn't possible to dedicate that much time to farming one prime set without getting it.

Not to mention other resources needed and the 3 and 1/2 days it take to build the parts and frame.

Most resources for building frames are readily available or can be acquired easily. Assuming the player doesn't have an enormous stockpile already. The time spent in the foundry isn't active player time, either. The game builds your shit for you even when you're not playing it.

Warframe's got its problems. But if you spend a full day playing Warframe it's nearly impossible to get nothing out of it. If you're even slightly efficient you can accomplish a lot whether you succeed at your main goal or not; resources, XP, forma leveling, nightwave, standing... If you spend a day grinding Outriders and get no Legos or just trash ones... What did you gain? Nothing.

ID: gzslbk4

Used to farm solo too but with a group or rad shares the times drops to few hours a day and if you farm the proper drop locations for the new relics you can knock it out in a eve, gara p is building for me and both weapons.

Do agree with nidus holy hell C drop and terrable spawns on a terrable map and ash being basically the same just pick your tileset only makes it lightly pess of a pain.

But you got to agree least it feels like progress when relic running you got ducats if not the part your after, with this its oh look amber vault again, same static roll again.

ID: gzt59g2

Nidus and harrow we're years ago, and everyone agrees those two are/were shit farms. Op is talking about the relic system.

ID: gzsaibb

Or I can spend platinum and buy it (which I do as I have a full time job and not enough time to play)

ID: gzsdkht

I don't think I want to see this added to Outriders.

ID: gzsdx27

I was sticking specifically to farming, but yes, you have a point.

That said, Outriders is so backwards already and PCF is riding the fence between incompetent and greedy so well that pay-to-skip is a terrible idea for Outriders. They already got full price for a $20 game, they can fuck right off if they want more money.

ID: gztdfz9

The more people farm (play) = more money for them from Microsoft since i bet alot of people play the game through GPU.

So lower drop rates make more money for them easily.

4 : Anonymous2021/05/28 19:18 ID: gzskkfd

I swear to god that was one of the most tone deaf, ohnoxious responses I have ever seen a cm give.

ID: gzst8ag

He's gaslighting the entire community.

ID: gztd6jf

As someone with development experience, who routinely is critical of Outriders and PCF, I actually have to ask here, why?

His point is perfectly valid. Regardless of how poorly it's implemented, the loot system IS complicated and has loads of different variables all of which could either be working perfectly and so the drop rates themselves need tweaked, OR some or all of them aren't working and that's why the rates are so bad.

A lot of those questions are good ones and the purpose of them is to diagnose the issue. It really ISN'T as simple as just "upping the drop rate" because the it's not as easy as just flipping a switch on and off. You have to ascertain what's happening? is everything working as intended? If not what isn't? If it is then what needs to be improved and how?

The vast majority of the posts and comments on here are just "DROP RATES SUCK" but that doesn't actually provide any real information on WHY they do.

ID: gztgutf


This PR clown clearly doesn't know how it works, what is broken, or what people are complaining about. Then, he has the audacity to condescend to customers making the situation worse.

The premise that the THE COMPANY THAT MADE THE GAME needs to the player base to create a perfect diagnosis for them to begin investigating the issue is fucking laughable.

I'm just here to watch him make this situation worse at this point. It's more entertaining than the game was.

ID: gzteshf

At that point you’re expecting players to have a better understanding of the loot system than the devs/CM. Players aren’t gonna know why loot drops are bad, nor will 99% be willing to test to find out. They just know they feel bad and communicate it.

Then we get questions like this that no one has a legitimate answer to (again because our understanding of the loot system is much lesser than that of the people who built it) so the only real answer we can give is to say “yeah buff the drops rates on everything” because that’s the only way we know we will get the desired change. Saying “no” to one of those questions could mean the loot drops are still bad, so the only answer most will give is “yes.”

ID: gzteyci

For now, in order to improve player feedback, pull all the levers and THEN, determine what needs downward adjustment.

5 : Anonymous2021/05/28 18:16 ID: gzsc47e

I think a huge part of the problem is players do not have enough different ways to grind, forcing everyone to play X build until they get Y item. And when Y item never drops, they feel their time is wasted. If I could grind, for example, a horde mode to get gear using a tank class, then transition to time trials when I find the DPS gear I’m looking for, that would take more of the “grind” feeling out and people would just play what they want, how they want, and have fun while also getting items.

100% there needs to be a way to guarantees people’s time is worth it. For example, Mass Effect 3’s multiplayer was simple, challenging, and rewarding. Simple in that you just kill stuff for fun. Challenging in that there were plenty of difficulty tiers with somewhat random spawns to keep things hard and fresh. Rewarding in that you ALWAYS got rewarded when you beat the level by getting credits (higher difficulty more credits) and you could spend those credits on (stay with me here) essentially loot boxes BUT they guaranteed a certain type of reward (99k = 2 rare items, 60k 1 rare, etc). It was all RNG while still being rewarding. The rewards did give duplicates but a duplicate never went to waste, it would level up that item again. If I got 2 of the same gun, that gun would now be level 2 with more ammo, accuracy, and damage. After getting a weapon 10 times, it’s out of the loot pool.

ID: gzsie6u

Fucking real shame that the remaster is leaving ME3 Multiplayer on the cutting room floor. I enjoyed fucking things up as a Krogan.

ID: gzsky7i

I have been debating if I want to play through the series again and pick up the remaster. It's a debate because I know how it ends and I despised the ending. I loved everything else about the game series, especially the multiplayer.

You have now ended the debate for me. No multiplayer, no purchase.

ID: gzsr4a3

IIRC, the duplicates were used to enhance the existing item. Everything went I to X. And once you capped at X, you never saw that reward ever again.

ID: gzt06yp


6 : Anonymous2021/05/28 19:21 ID: gzskxqr

The way I look at it, at CT 15, you got a 75% chance at getting Fk all

ID: gzt67j8

And it gets worse, in that remaining 25% you have a 1 in the number of available legendaries to get the single one you want.

7 : Anonymous2021/05/28 17:02 ID: gzs238a

I agree the answer to all of these are Yes.

ID: gzs7tpe

One of those questions was, "are players getting too much armor and not enough weapons or vice versa?" To which, "yes," isn't really a coherent answer.

ID: gzsbtfm

PCF doesn't use coherent development strategies to make this game better. So, maybe a nonsense answer is better?

8 : Anonymous2021/05/28 18:12 ID: gzsbmtg

The fact that these questions even have to be asked, given the content of a TON of discussions across multiple forms of media, shows me PCF has absolutely no clue.

9 : Anonymous2021/05/28 19:20 ID: gzskt6h

They keep putting it off like it's just the community complaining and their game works as intended, which actually pisses me off more.

10 : Anonymous2021/05/28 18:37 ID: gzsew0y

We are monitoring it closely. There is a lot to explain to this topic and we have not done a good job. Once we have all the data, we are confident to talk about this

ID: gzszcb9

"We are watching the player count drop hourly. Once it is below our required threshold, we will consider changing things as we see fit."

11 : Anonymous2021/05/28 22:28 ID: gzt7x4s

The legendaries you get during the campaign you likely just dismantle by the time you start playing expeditions as the cost of upgrading them repeatedly is extremely pricy. And no you don’t get enough drops. Many legendaries that do drop from pods have bad to mediocre stats and they get trashed anyways.

Increase the rate by 5% across the board at Level 10 expeditions and up.

12 : Anonymous2021/05/28 17:23 ID: gzs510p

I don't really care about targeting loot. I don't want this to be Destiny where they release a quest and everybody gets the same legendary item. Or farm a single boss on loop for the item it drops.

Im totally fine with the Diablo style random loot farming, not knowing what you're gonna get. The drop rates just need to go up in Expeditions, and the WT drop rates should go WAY up.

I can handle getting a cannon ball armor piece 5 times if I knew I was getting a bunch of loot per hour of gameplay. It just feels bad when you get 2 items in an hour and they're duplicates.

ID: gzs5jya

Exactly. When you spend 30-40 minutes to run a few CT15 Gold, only get 2 items, and they're both Cannonball duplicates... Oof.

ID: gzsemd0

Come back in a month when you are actually 1 short of collecting all the legos on a character. And that lego is a helmet. Forget cannoball, yesterday I got my 12th pants of edge of times. I already have atleast 3 of each of the 19 out of 20 legos of a trickster. I keep them in my inventory just so maybe the RNG takes a pity and doesnt drop them anymore.

150+ CT15 golds specifically farming for Ugake crowl, and still havent gotten it.

So no, I dont need my 13th pants of edge of time, or 8th ugake glove, or 10th landluber. I just need 1 ugake crowl mask, so I can move to another character.

The random loot idea is crap. Even if you increase the current drop rate, given that my chance of getting the ugake crowl are less than 1 in 100 for a lego drop, it wont make a dent in improving the chances.

ID: gzsil08

But what you want is everything once so you can quit. That's horrible for gaming.

ID: gzt0ly0

Targeted loot sucks unless it's done right and typically rotating otherwise it gets old as shit doing the same thing as nauseum. I think more ways to get stuff is generally better. With the odd trinket from specific activities.

ID: gzt36f1

Yeah I agree there. Nothing wrong with the odd boss drop. But most loot progression being randomized is way better. And the successful looters do that. They let you farm, give you lots more to chase, but still make you feel like you're always progressing for your time.

13 : Anonymous2021/05/28 18:28 ID: gzsdpln
ID: gzsji6i

Lol and people are actually buying this? Like, I don't wanna judge but I miss the times where people used to play games to HAVE FUN

ID: gzsk8v5

I bought it. Just because I’m tired of begging for carry’s and just tired of awful matchmaking. Don’t even get me started on the awful groups from random discord’s.

14 : Anonymous2021/05/28 18:01 ID: gzsa71t

Does it mean players want zero grind? Yes. Does it mean players dont know what they are actually playing? Yes. Does it mean players should play something more suitable for the feeble minded? Yes.

ID: gzsdbd7

You think this loot system is better than Diablo?!

15 : Anonymous2021/05/28 20:13 ID: gzsrot7

Is there any chance of them actually fixing this. I figured it should be like Diablo where it has Constant drops but you're looking for the constant "Better Stats"

Instead I've only ever seen the cannon ball helmet, the shotgun with Golem (for my pyro) and the Bad Juju with my guaranteed legendries.

Never seen a random drop.

16 : Anonymous2021/05/28 20:56 ID: gzsx00c

It's even simpler than that. There are 4 sets everyone wants. One piece of those is rigged beyond common sense not to drop. End of story.

17 : Anonymous2021/05/28 23:52 ID: gzth178

Wtf is with all their surveys and forms they want us to fill out?! Why are they investigating their own game like it's some fugn mystery?!

This is some "2 greens and a blue" type shit.


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