The difference between 14 and 7nm chips with the similar size

1 : Anonymous2021/12/01 23:11 ID: r6s5gg
The difference between 14 and 7nm chips with the similar size
2 : Anonymous2021/12/01 23:30 ID: hmv1hbt

TechPowerUp lists these differently:

Athlon 3000G:

Surface Area: 148 mm²

Fabrication Process: GlobalFoundaries 14nm

Transistor Count: 4.8 Billion


Surface Area: 180 mm²

Fabrication Process: TSMC 7nm

Transistor Count: 10.7 Billion

So they’re not really ‘similar’. The 5700G is roughly 21.6% larger in die size, aside from the fact that they’re made by completely different manufacturers as well (aka transistor density would differ across different manufacturers, even on the same ‘node’).

ID: hmveak1

Yes, but in the 'old days' a 14nm to 7nm transition would mean 4x transistor density. For example, when the world went from 90nm to 45nm.

Those days are long gone.

What I find interesting is that going from "14nm" to "7nm" is a bit over to 2x as dense in transistors per mm^2. (Assuming Dali is 148mm^2 and ~ 3.5 Billion transistors; its not 4.8 billion -- and assuming we're talking about that die, the 2 cpu core one).

This is due to a large number of factors, from the I/O portions not shrinking, to SRAM shrinking more slowly than logic.

Its more interesting than TSMC or GloFo's advertised density numbers because its a real product, with a combination of logic, SRAM, and I/O.

ID: hmvkoru

full Zen 1 APU die with 11CUs and 4x Zen cores has 4.94B transistors according to TPU

there is no way that Dali (the die that makes the 3000G) has 4.8B

ID: hmvq64k

Maybe the 3000G are binned Zen 1 APU's? If so... they kept them all until last year-ish and decided to sell them at scale for 50 dollars?

ID: hmv1y3z

Athlon 3000G is not 4.8bln transistors, that's the transistor count of 3200G and 3400G. Maybe techpowerup thinks that 3000G is a cut-down 4 core but it's not.

here's the die shot of Dali die, it's 2 cores link

also, i'm not sure about 148mm2 size, it's about 165-170

edit: did the math and Techpowerup is right about the die size (link)

it's about 22% bigger. but I thinks it's a little difference still.

ID: hmv8f15

I mean it lists the 3000G as a 2 core part so I’m not convinced fully that it’s wrong tbh. Where did you get these figures?

Even WikiChip lists the 3000G as having 4.94 billion transistors so it is at least closer to TechPowerUp compared to the 3.5 billion you have listed here. Aka two sources have different numbers (three if you count your photo) for the 3000G.

ID: hmvqac7

Hmm, maybe the 3000G started as binned 32/3400gs and then got its own die?

ID: hmwhajb

What would be more interesting would be where to get the 5700G for 50 € new. I wish they would make some quadcore for that price (new). Somehow the prices now spiked,

3 : Anonymous2021/12/02 03:43 ID: hmw048x

Why compare a bottom tier 14/12nm Ryzen APU with a top tier 7nm Ryzen CPU in size when you can look at something like the 2400G that's still 14/12nm but more fleshed out in terms of die size like the top tier Ryzen 7?

ID: hmxf0em

The 5700G is a top tier APU and more of an upper mid-range CPU.

4 : Anonymous2021/12/02 02:44 ID: hmvs6cf

Ah, Moore's Law

ID: hmweqhi

Wait until reality starts setting in with the masses. They're so oblivious to how bad things are brick walling right now. They think we'll just keep going on and on improving, but physics dictates we can't. Things are going to get pretty stagnant real soon. (Relative terms)

ID: hmwsi8j

The 3D V-Cache of Milan-X can speed up specific workloads by +66%, probably best case scenario, and we know that Ryzen with 3D V-Cache can be +10-15% for games. So I guess Moore's law extended is 2.5D and 3D?

ID: hmxcjlz

I think once we brick wall we'll just go back to mutli cpu and coprocessor environments for commercial use. Mutli cpus are common in enterprise but not really home use.

ID: hmwwoxg

I think this is true without some sort of breakthrough honestly. I think diminishing returns is a thing for sure and we need innovation to keep improving in different ways than we do currently since you can't keep leap frogging forever. I'm just curious what we'll see. I don't think it's inherently bad either way though.

I think it's totally possible but when or how likely is a whole other story. Either way I like this stuff.

ID: hmwqtmb

Funny how you are getting downvoted for the truth, people really are oblivious to this

ID: hmxw31q

Things have already been pretty stagnant for gaming/real-world speed changes.

There's relatively little reason to upgrade a CPU for at least 3-4 "generations" at this point. I had i5-3570k and the 4690k was basically 2-5% better, 6600k 5-10%. By the 7600k it finally made sense to upgrade (and probably still made more sense to upgrade the GPU), and that was 5 years later.

5 : Anonymous2021/12/02 06:34 ID: hmwipuk

You are getting hate, but from a purely visual perspective I find it really interesting!

ID: hmx335y

This thread is a mess, OP getting bullied for having common sense lol.

6 : Anonymous2021/12/02 04:40 ID: hmw70my

$50 vs $350

7 : Anonymous2021/12/01 23:17 ID: hmuzw0q

btw, just wanted to add:

3000G shown in the picture is the full die variant of "Dali" or "Raven Ridge 2" die

5700G is the full die variant of "Renoir" "Cezanne" die, so the comparison is fair

edit: replaced wrong info

edit2: it seems like "Dali" and "Raven ridge 2" are the same, because B1 revision of 3000G is "Dali"

edit3: and it seems like there's another version of 3000G - quad core "picasso" cut down to two cores.

ID: hmv1nlo

I thought the 5000 desktop series was based on Cezanne?

ID: hmv2g8f

you're right

ID: hmvbe6u

The Athlon 3000G is Picasso. The Athlon Silver 3050U, Athlon Gold 3150U and Ryzen 3 3250U are all Dali.

ID: hmvgrn7

There are 2 variants of the Athlon 3000G, Picasso and Raven Ridge.

my motherboard supports both, but for RRidge it needs a newer bios

8 : Anonymous2021/12/02 01:50 ID: hmvknta

i have an athlon 3000G in my cottage PC. nice, cheap, runs very well for web browsing & esports games when paired with the HD 7970 in there

ID: hmvyvnk

Nice. I have plans for something similar. I just need 8 PCI-E lanes to let a little Rx250 1gb with a dinky silent Arctic Mono cooler have the room to stretch its legs for CEMU (Vulkan lets that GPU soar). I've seen and used oodles of ex kiosk and advertising motherboards but I almost always end up bottlenecked by an x1 or x4 PCI-E slot. I'm just too cheap to buy too new and too fancy.

ID: hmwhhvv

I would still take the 1200 instead, I used one during RMA, its not pretty but it gets the job done (Like Kruber in Vermintide 2). But it has its limit, V2 has severe drops andgames like BFV won't be playable on it. But for older games its fine.

Not sure about this, does the Athlon support dual-channel? Because that would be a severe gaming bottleneck. DDR4 is still twice as fast as DDR3, but the bandwith is important, especially when you have a bad CPU.

ID: hmy35sd

Yes, 3000g and its variants support dual channel.

ID: hmwjv2k

Funny thing, I have its close cousin, the Ryzen R1505G, an embedded version. I picked up an HP T640 thin client for $100 in a fire sale earlier this year with one of these inside.

ID: hmwv823

I'm sad I missed that sale, I saw it over on sth

9 : Anonymous2021/12/02 02:24 ID: hmvpga4

Wait.. you can actually see the architecture on the die..???

ID: hmvq5el

You can, but the die must be taken out and sanded down with precision.

Here's Fritzchen Fritz's page on flickr, he does this kind of stuff

ID: hmvr8as

Ah so like I have an old core 2 duo on hand that doesn't work. So if I sand it down will i be able to see the stuff?

ID: hmwceya

Exactly. These are not even the same socket. There's no scale reference (banana) in the image.

ID: hmwv6g1


ID: hmxeiki

I believe you do. What you see when you delid a CPU is actually the backside of the dye. You would need to remove the dye from the CPU substrate to look at the other side, and probably lap it.

ID: hmxiwv6

ah okay

10 : Anonymous2021/12/02 05:03 ID: hmw9muj

the "X" nm can no longer be used to estimate density and performance IMO because new technologies now not just trying to squeeze on the horizontal plane but is also improving on the vertical plane and thus the "X" nm to me now is mainly like a marketing jingle that make people think that the smaller the size is, the bette

advanced it is, which is true to a certain extent, but does not necessarily translate to pure performance numbers .

ID: hmwjsf5

Any YouTube videos or articles explaining how they're trying to move into the vertical plane?

ID: hmwmtmv should have at least 1 article and Anandtech as well. Search for 3D stacking.

11 : Anonymous2021/12/02 02:32 ID: hmvqjpl

12/14nm are really just evolutions of 20nm FinFet, that's why TSMC 7nm (which is closer to a true 10nm node) has so many more transistors.

12 : Anonymous2021/12/02 02:28 ID: hmvpyje

So the transistors of the Vega CU's on the 5700g were shrunken down to 7nm as well?

ID: hmvqmoj

Yeah, pretty much everything shrinks with a newer node. CPU and GPU cores shrink better than most blocks on a die

13 : Anonymous2021/12/02 04:52 ID: hmw8ex3

Why does AMD not increase the size of their dies? I don't know anything about the hardware side of this stuff.

ID: hmw8y0x

They produce less dies if they increase their size, so AMD and others are fighting to keep it minimal

14 : Anonymous2021/12/02 06:22 ID: hmwhntr

I wouldn't mind a quadcore successor of the Athlon with a cut down GPU (for display only power saving).

15 : Anonymous2021/12/02 12:35 ID: hmxajp8

AMD with 7nm technology has really shown, how powerful they can get in the last 5 years. Big ups for Lisa Su.

16 : Anonymous2021/12/02 02:18 ID: hmvokee

My old Ryzen 2600 is 12 nm apparently (Transistors: 4,8 billion). Still a lot smaller since my old FX 8350 was 32nm (Transistors: 1,2 billion). But wow, over 9 billion of them. That's insane.


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