PS5 Will Use the DualSense to Optimise 3D Audio Through TV Speakers

1 : Anonymous2021/07/29 12:50 ID: otwv6w
PS5 Will Use the DualSense to Optimise 3D Audio Through TV Speakers
2 : Anonymous2021/07/29 13:05 ID: h6y9oqw

Sounds pretty similar to what Sonos does with their Trueplay tuning. I hope this will eventually work for HDMI speaker setups as well like soundbars.

ID: h6ya626

I'm betting it will! But guessing we won't get multi-speaker 3D surround till 2022.

ID: h6yache

Thankfully my surround setup does a phenomenal job as is, but always looking forward to technologies to make it better.

ID: h70c6m7

I mean tbh its already 3D tho.

I have my Sonos surround sound setup and its so weird how it puts shit behind me and up top. Ill still take a sound profile just in case they somehow make it better tho.

ID: h6ys3s1

So this doesn't work for soundbars? That's unfortunate, couldn't imagine using the TV speakers only....sure it would have 3D audio but it would sounds like I'm in a tin can

ID: h712ovm

Damn, what kind of TV do you have for its built-in speakers to sound like a tin can? A cardboard box with a metal trash can lid as the base?

3 : Anonymous2021/07/29 13:59 ID: h6ygbg1

Here's hoping they also improve the HRTF selection tool for headphones. Pretty sure I'm missing out on a lot of the surround effect because none of the profiles sound "right".

Update: They are!

ID: h6ytmtj

Yay! 2 of the 5 profiles sound the same to me and I'm not entirely sure which is "right"

ID: h7005us

I’ve been missing out on 3D Audio completely because all 5 presets sound muffled to my ears (using the Pulse headset too). Which was unexpected, as virtual surround sound has always been the preferred option for me, but now this is the first time in a long while I’ve had to play with just stereo sound.
Edit: Guys. It's all muffled; the quality, & the directionality. It's hard to pick out the source of an audio queue if someone smashes a pillow up into your ears. Back at launch, I had found one that had approached acceptable, and played awhile to see if I'd get used to it, but then tried out stereo out of curiosity and ironically it was the closet sound to the Gold's VSS than the 3D Audio's presets.

ID: h72mvdk

... all 5 presets sound muffled to my ears (using the Pulse headset too).

No, you're completely missing the point: All you need to concentrate on when selecting a profile is the sense of directionality.

Try the setup process again, and ignore any sense of the sound being muffled, and concentrate soley on which profile gives you the most accurate sense of direction/position.

4 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:15 ID: h6yifgo

I'm a weirdo that uses an AV receiver with corded headphones. I hope they enable 3D audio over HDMI because right now it's disabled. My alternative is to just plug my headphones into the controller which works but is more of an inconvenience with my setup.

ID: h6ylscr

How so? I've noticed sometimes if I boot up the PS5 with headphones already plugged into the controller, HDMI control to other devices might not work properly, but it seldom does on a good day. What issues do you run into?

ID: h6yn1zw

Maybe I didn't explain well enough. 3D audio currently only works via the 3D Audio Headphones Sony sells or a standard set of headphones plugged directly into the controller. My headphones are plugged into my AV receiver. Audio is coming from the PS5 via HDMI into the receiver in PCM format. I'm hoping someday they'll allow the 3D audio format to be pipped through the HDMI cable because right now it doesn't recognize 3D audio in settings unless I plug my headphones directly into the controller instead of my AV receiver.

tl;dr whatever special codec/format 3D audio uses does not get pipped through HDMI currently, only via their wireless headphones and controller which unfortunately is a setup I don't use.

ID: h6zn6l0

yeah, i have a similar setup and it's frustrating that i can't just tell the ps5 "i know what i'm doing, i'm using headphones, please trust me." i get why they'd want to limit it when they can't verify the equipment, but i wish it that was just like, a spooky warning instead of completely disabling the features.

5 : Anonymous2021/07/29 12:52 ID: h6y8a0v

Man, I called this back in the fall and basically got called an idiot by a dozen people on this sub. There were a few who said "cool!" and "oh that would be clever!"

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ID: h6y8pfw

“They called me a Madman” - Thanos -

ID: h6y8wk3

This sub will downvote anything thats remotely technical if its not mentioned by Sony PR.

I’m not sure why this is surprising. My (well really my parents) Sony 5.1 receiver from 2010 had a mic for room setup and compensation. Using a remote for calibration is a standard thing on high end TVs with smart remotes these days.

ID: h6ycj60

It really unfortunate how almost no gaming subreddit ever wants to have a conversation. It’s either toxic positivity or toxic criticism.

ID: h6z16y7

My (well really my parents) Sony 5.1 receiver from 2010 had a mic for room setup and compensation

Yep, my Samsung home theater system (from like 2010) has a mic that you were supposed to plug in and set in the middle of the room so it could configure itself.

ID: h6y992d

Yup. But that didn't stop a whole bunch of fanboys with zero technical knowledge from calling me an idiot and saying stuff like "how can it do that when it's only for noise cancellation?" or "I don't think the mics are powerful enough". I love when people have zero clue try to get technical.

These are the same bright minds who think you need to buy the Sony branded headphones to get 3D and think "surround" headphones work by having multiple drivers in each ear to create surround effects. Bless their hearts.

ID: h705riv

Most comments were positive hop down off the cross there

ID: h6z2dw8

People care less about sound 🙁 I think 3D audio is very interesting

ID: h6ya3xb

Do you have a link to that discussion?

ID: h6ya94d

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6 : Anonymous2021/07/29 16:30 ID: h6z1bca

i can't even imagine how that will work with something like say the LG CX speakers with how thin the TV is.

Then again I don't understand this shit much at all because I don't get how soundbars from directly in front of you can do surround sound.

ID: h6z7ycc

Yeah, the size of the speakers won't really diminish the ability to emulate surround sound. Nor will their power levels.

The simplest way I can try to explain how "fake" surround (like what you get in a soundbar or through headphones on the PS5) works is that the way our brains infer the location of a a sound is based on which frequencies seem louder or quieter for a given sound. The weird shape of our outer ears actually evolved to basically make it so that sounds coming from on specific direction sound different coming from another direction (not just left vs right, but front and back and up and down). Our brains also infer location by measuring the different arrival times and volume levels of sounds between our two ears. So your brain notices that a particular sound hit your left ear 10ms after your right ear heard it, then the sound must be coming from the right side of you.

Surround processing like Sony's 3D audio basically takes these principles of human hearing and processes the individual sounds to trick your brain into a sound being in a specific place even if you're only listening with stereo headphones.

And most of this stuff has been well understood for decades. Most professionally recorded music is produced so that the lead vocals either sound like they're all around you, or that they're coming from inside your head. Even stuff dating back to the Beetles, and probably older. All this to say this stuff isn't marketing BS or magical -- we've been doing it for a long, long time. Hope that helps!

ID: h6z8gdz

So your brain notices that a particular sound hit your left ear 10ms after your right ear heard it, then the sound must be coming from the right side of you

That actually sounds pretty cool explained that way. Never really thought of it.

My main one is the above/below or behind though, curious to how you make the speakers directly in front of you trick your brain to sound behind you.

ID: h6znikw

Hint: they really can't

7 : Anonymous2021/07/29 16:37 ID: h6z2exq

Hopefully this extends to sound systems as well. I know it’s not the majority of gamers but we want to use 3D Audio too.

ID: h6z8r38

Nope. Not yet. We'll need to wait for official support, which I'm guessing will come in 2022. And you don't want to try to force it by using the TV 3D audio mode through your surround system -- the PS5 needs to be aware of the position of each of your speakers etc for 3D audio to work.

8 : Anonymous2021/07/29 16:47 ID: h6z3tqn

Kind of like some high-end soundbars that analyze the acoustic of your room to adjust their up and side firing speaker for the optimal sound stage.

9 : Anonymous2021/07/29 18:03 ID: h6zf6ho

Equalizer setting for the Pulse 3Ds? More 3D audio settings, 3D Audio support for TV speakers, expansion slot, vertical trophies… a lot of good stuff coming with this system update. Seems incredibly hefty.

10 : Anonymous2021/07/29 13:26 ID: h6yc7f9

I wish the PS5 had a way to optimize audio in its media apps. Games, the audio is amazing. Blu-ray, audio is amazing. Netflix, HBOmax, Disney+, the audio is terrible. I don’t have this issue with my Roku so I’m guessing there’s something about the PlayStation that makes the media apps think I have a 5.1 because dialog audio and explosion audio are really messed up.

ID: h6ye0iv

Your Roku is probably doing dynamic range compression when it converts to stereo.

ID: h6yha3t

I’m not super up on the tech lingo of audio, but that’s where it takes the center channel, which is often used for dialog, and balances it with the other channels, which is used for ambient sound, when it it pushes it out of two speakers? Whereas normally all five channels out equally so the ambient sound is 4x louder than dialog?

11 : Anonymous2021/07/29 13:52 ID: h6yff8a

Lol i got downvote for just saying calibration like this similiar with audyssey.

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Atleast i am right about this

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ID: h6znxzi

It's ok the audiophile crowd gets u

ID: h6yg06n

Good grief. It's truly head-scratching how folks don't like things they don't understand.

12 : Anonymous2021/07/29 18:21 ID: h6zhrbf

I still wonder if 3D audio does anything for anyone with a surround setup.

I've been rocking surround sound since the start on PS5, and I feel like I notice some improvement over PS4, but it could be a placebo. Could even be that I'm hearing the tempest chip's improved sound processing, but surround users don't get the full 3D audio.

ID: h6zjqw6

I think the reality is that there are different ways or "modes" the 3D audio engine works. At one end of the extreme where it's been fully integrated into a game, it'll essentially be used to calculate positional audio for every single unique audio element (through path tracing similar to graphical ray tracing actually). But there are other instances where it is presumably taking a less sophisticated game's surround sound mix (for example, any PS4 game's 5.1/7.1 mode) and using HRTF to preserve the 3D dimensional locality through a stereo headphone/TV signal.

That said, if the game is using the Tempest engine in engine to do the audio processing (probably pretty unlikely for most third-party titles), then you're probably getting some improvement from that because it can still take that information and downmix it into a 5.1/7.1 stream. In fact, I think this pretty much HAS to be the case because otherwise PS5 games would need to ship with two completely different audio pipeline modes depending on whether a user plugs in headphones vs uses a surround sound system.

My guess is that when Sony says 3D audio/Tempest doesn't currently support 5.1/7.1 systems, what they really mean is that it'll further process the audio before downmixing to 5.1/7.1 for more distinct locality effects between speakers, as well as vertical effects.

They've done a pretty bad job of explaining exactly what modes or ways the thing works in, but it's pretty challenging to explain anyway. But all this to say when they say 3D audio doesn't currently "support" 5.1/7.1 systems, it's an oversimplification, and games that use Tempest to calculate acoustics etc in-engine clearly still work when using a real surround sound system.

13 : Anonymous2021/07/29 21:16 ID: h706wuh


14 : Anonymous2021/07/29 21:20 ID: h707l7b

I just registered for the beta off the strength of this. This with my Sterep homepods through ARC is going to sound crazy.

I really hope I get selected for it now T_T

15 : Anonymous2021/07/29 22:03 ID: h70dfv1

Got the beta invite today with 3D audio update for TV speakers. I will check it out later.

16 : Anonymous2021/07/30 02:20 ID: h71a56k

So when I don’t use headphones I have a soundbar. Does this do anything ?

17 : Anonymous2021/07/29 15:17 ID: h6yqxjz

I always use headphones when gaming so this would probably be useless for me

ID: h6yu387

Yup. But I'd assume the vast majority of console players are using TV speakers only, so this will be a nice feature for a huge swath of people. Presumably why Sony prioritized getting it up and running before tackling proper multi-speaker setups.

ID: h6yx8kd

I didn't even know people used their TV speakers, I thought everyone had a sound system of sorts? Even a £30 2.1 system will sound better than your native TV speakers.

18 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:57 ID: h6yo1ok

Does the 3D through headphones like the Pulse 3D work for movies....?

ID: h6yttha

In theory yes. Sony says that the PS5 processes real surround mixes for emulated surround when you're using headphones, so I assume that extends to when watching media. But it's not something I've tested at all. I'd recommend finding a movie that you know has a moment where the audio really noticeably pans around from front to back or vice versa and see if the effect is preserved when you plug in your headphones. (Super old reference, but to this day one of the most prominent examples I can think of of a sound moving through the soundfield from front to back is the scene in Minority report where John rushes into the room with the precogs, and the ID verification voice moves from front to back as the camera follows him through the door.)

ID: h6yr3n5

Good question Browie and nice hair!

20 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:27 ID: h6yjxxq

This will work in a similar way to your TV built in "surround sound" preset, common in most smart TVs so I don't think it will be too impressive.

Still waiting on the support for speakers such as Sonos.

As for the 3D audio support, is there a definitive list of games? I know most Sony first party supports it but the third party?

21 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:50 ID: h6yn1ly

It's definitely not going to be a substitute for a proper surround setup or headphones, but it should be better than the gimmicky "3D surround" preset TVs have had for a long time. I say that because in the case of the PS5, it'll use the mics to infer the position of the TV's speakers, the acoustics of the room, and the location of the user's ears in the room (Betting when you use the calibration tool it'll tell you to sit exactly where you play, with the controller held exactly where you would hold it if playing a game). Again, it's not going to blow anyone's minds, but it should be noticeably better than a "dumb" fake surround mode that doesn't take any of the above variables into account.

As for third party support, it seems that even most third party games say they use the Tempest engine, but I think the reality is that there are multiple level of how a dev can use it. And yeah, I'd speculate that it's pretty much only first party titles, if not specifically just generational exclusive first party titles, that use all of the features of the Tempest engine.

That said I do recall Sony explaining in an FAQ that the PS5 will take a true 5.1/7.1 mix and process it for your headphones to emulate surround sound when you have them plugged in, so even games that don't support it officially (including all PS4 games) are getting forced through Tempest to an extent.

22 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:54 ID: h6ynlr2

I've seen a lot of third party devs implement 3D audio into PS5 games, almost all of the new games have it I think. That's probably because Xbox has 3D audio too, so the devs have more incentive to implement it.

23 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:57 ID: h6yo068

My TV doesn't have a mic, so no, its surround sound implementation is not the same as what is being described here for the PS5.

24 : Anonymous2021/07/30 08:59 ID: h729o66

I get that, but ultimately the effect will be similar, no amount of psychoacoustic processing can turn a weak single drive stereo TV speaker system into a full fledged 3D audio experience, unfortunately its just not possible.

25 : Anonymous2021/07/29 14:44 ID: h6ymb7z

It’s pretty similar to what some Tv’s use anyway the technology’s been there for a while but I’m hoping what Sony bring will be a lot better. For example my LG CX uses this method to calibrate the tv with the remote.

26 : Anonymous2021/07/29 15:59 ID: h6ywxnu

I have a headset plugged into my monitor via 3.5mm jack, and I can hear left and right fine, but I usually can’t tell if something is in front of or behind me. Is this due to lack of 3D audio and will it work better after this patch?

I know I can plug it into my controller but the the jack is so bulky I’d prefer not to do that.

27 : Anonymous2021/07/29 17:05 ID: h6z6k12

You're definitely not benefitting from any of the 3D audio processing if you're not using the controller's headphone jack (or a USB headset I guess). The PS5 can't tell what type of device you're using for audio if you're not plugging headphones into the controller, so it turns off all 3D audio stuff. So yes, you will absolutely benefit from plugging into the controller since you're not getting any 3D audio processing otherwise.

As for things working better, if you're asking if your above setup will "sound" more surround-like, no, it won't. But the ability to better select 3D sound profile (also known as an HRTF) in the system settings should improve things. They also cryptically note that 3D audio is improved in some titles. Not sure what that means though.

My headphones have a bulky jack too, so it is a bit annoying, but I've just gotten used to holding the controller just a little further out in front of me. The tradeoff is worth it for 3D audio, IMHO.

28 : Anonymous2021/07/29 17:44 ID: h6zcafm

What I'm curious to see is if this is going to let me use my headphones via DAC that can't connect to PS5. Basically using the optical cable as if it were "speakers" and then connecting my headphones.

29 : Anonymous2021/07/29 18:52 ID: h6zm6tp

I read that in the notes and I already love it, lots of high-end audio solutions come/compatible with microphones to tune the sound to the specific room and sound system-user location and it's great.

I just hope it'll work well.

30 : Anonymous2021/07/29 19:22 ID: h6zqkc8

They really need to make this work for people with AVRs and surround sound setups.

It really should have worked at launch.

31 : Anonymous2021/07/29 19:23 ID: h6zqont

Whats the point of an audyssey type setup if its just gonna be from the tv speakers? I wonder how its gonna work when they finally get around to supporting home theater setups, most already have room correction set up

32 : Anonymous2021/07/29 19:30 ID: h6zrp98

Because even with just two speakers, you can emulate surround sound. It's not going to be as convincing as a proper surround setup, and particularly unconvincing when using TV speakers, but literally any speaker is capable of generating emulated surround sound, particularly if the system can use a mic to calibrate itself for the room and relative location/distance between the TV speakers and the user's ears. It not solely about room acoustics correction.

33 : Anonymous2021/07/29 19:45 ID: h6zts9w

I know, I used to have a harman kardon 2.1 system with my ps3/360, back in prologic days etc and it was pretty spatial for what amounted to just stereo. I loved that set. But at least with that I could make a pretty wide soundscape to give the virtual surround something to work with.. TV speakers is just tv speakers in the end. I'm still very interested in where it all goes it's just that it's all starting to kinda feel a little bit off to me , like in the end they just didnt wanna pay the Atmos fee and we're kinda being bamboozled with a lot of flashy ads and technical jargon but sofar it hasn't really amounted to anything yet. I just wanna know if what we are gonna get in the end is gonna be something more then if I just switched on Virtual X on my receiver. How much calibration can they really do towards a set of tv speakers, sure you can tweak it to the listening position a little but im just starting to be a bit sceptical on the whole thing, I guess maybe my expectations were a bit too high

34 : Anonymous2021/07/29 21:49 ID: h70bjcl

I wonder if this would work with the 2.1 speakers that I have plugged into my TV through a 3.5mm jack.

35 : Anonymous2021/07/30 01:18 ID: h712fu2

Does anybody know if this includes soundbars?

36 : Anonymous2021/07/29 19:52 ID: h6zuvkp

Iam amused that people use TV Speakers these days since they are usually garbage and okish sometimes on more expensive models.

37 : Anonymous2021/07/29 23:14 ID: h70mrct

Make some games im bored asf with 120 euro in my ps wallet with nothing to buy


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