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I've spent tens of thousands of hours playing Dawn of War 1, I remember being like 10 years old when it came out, I was obsessed. Eventually when I was like 12 or whatever I actually managed to get an automatch score of 1650 and was like the top 100 Space Marines player. That game honestly changed my life.
Then Dawn of War 2 came out and while I think its gameplay design and design philosophy overall were not as good, it had a lot of awesome things going for it; the campaign had A LOT of depth and in terms of an isolated single player experience I think it might have been THE best RTS ever made, even more so than Warcraft 3/Starcraft 2. Fair amount of players play these games focusing solely on the narrative and for those players, I feel like the game delivered on every level.
The 2nd Dawn of War was just different and I don't mind them expermenting with the genre instead of playing it 100% safe. I think I've spent like 1000-2000 hours playing the 2nd game and all its expansions which is defnitely nothing in comparison to my playtime in the 1st game but hey, I'd say thousands of hours of entertainment that it provided mean that the game was indeed worth playing.
Then the rumors regarding the 3rd game started. I was so darn hyped. I pre-ordered the Collector's Edition on day 1. Then I got to play the game and... yeah.
The game was not as bad as some make it out to be. It was an average title I'd say. In comparison to previous games though it was rather shallow.
You could tell it was rushed and while other titles were a product of deep passion and care the new one was rushed. Things like UI/UX were very average which is a clear sign to me that the development had its ups and downs and the game lacked polish but it was the gameplay that was the most problematic. It lacked the depth of the previous games. I really wanted to like Dawn of War 3 but ended up spending 40 hours playing it, never to return...
It just makes me sad. The game was supposedly once again trying to come up with something new, and strived to combine the best elements of the 1st Dawn of War and the 2nd, tweaking the formula. Well, it did exactly the opposite and did NOT manage to copy the gameplay nuance of EITHER game. Some gameplay systems and mechanics felt very out of place and clearly the game was not playtested enough, I wonder if they even had a prototype/a vertical slice first that acted as a proof of concept. The single player wasn't that bad, felt like in terms of quality it was on the same level as that of the 1st game but in comparison to the 2nd it was a huuuuge downgrade.
Which brings me to my final sentiment; this series can't end like this. I understand that they needed to take a step back after how much of a failure the final game was. I still hope that Relic or some group of PASSIONATE developers out there will tackle the challenge. I feel like a remaster of the 1st game could act as a starting point for revitalizing the franchise paving way for a new Dawn of War, possibly simply called Dawn of War something rather than Dawn of War 4.
If say I was in charge of remastering the 1st game, here is what I'd try to achieve: similarly to what Vicarious Visions is doing with Diablo 2: Resurrected, I'd ONLY try to alter the visuals, possibly implementing all the new assets ON TOP of the old ones with the game logic functioning in the background. All the animation timings etc. should be EXACTLY the same; so no changes to gameplay except for perhaps playing with numerical parameters to tweak the overall gameplay balance; that is a slippery slope tho and any balance changes should be approached with EXTREME care. What I'd improve upon is the matchmaking system plus I'd add A LOT of cosmetics to multiplayer to incentivize playing, you know things like perhaps an achievement system with different brand new assets unlocked by playing that can be added in the army painter, player profiles with portraits and so forth.
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Sorry but I'm afraid you won't see a new Dow for a long time. Even when they finish the new Age of Empires for Microsoft, they will for sure return to Company of Heroes for a 3rd game.
They already had run a number of questionnaires asking about the future of the series (game mechanics, possible game locations), they still support the game with patches (only balance, not new content) and the game has 9k peak players daily seven years after it's launch.
ID: gq7dt3wID: gq7saepI mean the original dawn of war still has quite a few players 17 years after its launch :
& & ( 3 entries due to the dlcs being standalone also)ID: gq7zyzhHonestly CoH2 is awesome, but it has its quirks.
Crashes (bugsplats for those familiar) Limited and unintuitive mod tools. If they developed good map making tools, the community could release endless maps for the official rotation. No leaver penalty. In ranked games, you can just drop and start searching for a new game instantly. Makes solo queueing team games kinda hell. Optimization. Late game 4v4 with tanks and bombing runs and rocket arty flying everywhere makes the game slow down. Nuff said. -
Maybe a reboot in a DoW1 style? Adding new units, buildings and factions but staying true to the formula would be sick af
ID: gq8349cProblem is RTS's just aren't popular anymore, which is why they changed the formula in the first place.
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"This series can't end like this."
Man tell that to Starcraft, Supreme Commander, Command & Conquer, or Age of Empires once the corpse of Relic is done with it. No RTS goes out with a bang. Besides Warcraft apparently.
Dawn of War was a great series, but Relic is not the same Relic that made Homeworld. At best they can do another Company of Heroes sequel that is barely any different from the last and yet is somehow worse, that's what I'd trust them with.
It sounds harsh I know, but I've seen it too many times, RTS devs have an understanding of how the games should work, and then one day they just don't. Either talent drain or higher ups seeing market trends.
ID: gq7dd3kAge of empires seems a weird one to bring up considering how well AOE2 DE has done, like even if AOE4 is a absolute shit show it'll still be going well.
ID: gq7c4pjWait what's wrong with sc2? The stories weren't great but the missions themselves were awesome.
ID: gq7bl45Even Warcraft came back to flop, thanks to the WC3 Remaster Disaster.
ID: gq7e4zeMan tell that to Starcraft, Supreme Commander, Command & Conquer, or Age of Empires once the corpse of Relic is done with it. No RTS goes out with a bang. Besides Warcraft apparently.
What are you talking about? Starcraft 2 was a huge critical and commercial success, and spawned a large and long-lasting eSports scene. You could certainly argue that Blizzard mishandled the eSports side of it, but comparing it to C&C4 is just beyond the pale.
ID: gq79x27At best they can do another Company of Heroes sequel that is barely any different from the last and yet is somehow worse, that's what I'd trust them with.
This might have been true when CoH 2 launched, but not almost eight years later. The game came very far since its launch and has so many quality of life improvements that make it an overall better experience.
ID: gq7oks8Warcraft cheated by changing genres and fizzling out there
ID: gq7r7whIt sounds harsh I know, but I've seen it too many times, RTS devs have an understanding of how the games should work, and then one day they just don't.
I think this is partially because RTS is a niche genre now. It used to be popular 20 years ago because there was not much else to play. Then, genres like Moba exploded and RTS, with its high multi-tasking requirements, just weren't fun or attractive for new people. So even if the devs know how to make games in the genre, they might not have the resources for it, or are under pressure to expand their game to other audiences, as seen in Dawn of War 3 with the introduction of "moba-like" mechanics.
ID: gq85gpgI feel Warcraft remaster did make sure it has an odd addendum to that. And it going completely ignored for all these years in favor of world of warcraft.
ID: gq7tzr9Starcraft 2 didn't end on a bad note. Neither did Age of Empires.
ID: gq7w5doAnd honestly, I feel like it's weird to focus on how a series ends. It's... an IP. It isn't your friend. There were two amazing games and one shitty game. I would LOVE another DoW game but not so the series "ends" a certain way, but because it would be a fun new game to play.
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An entire feature length documentary could be made about how GW has squandered the 40K setting in video games. There have been over a hundred made but less than five have actually lived up to the setting’s potential, it’s a travesty
ID: gq7xdkxits crazy because the setting is massive and GW could make a tonne just approaching developers and saying "hey we'll dump truck money on you to make a game like 2142 but with the guard vs traitor guard".
ID: gq7yr6hThe shift in attitude is so weird. Back in the day GW was very stingy with their license, only giving it to very few select developers. Then one day they suddenly decided to hand out their license to whoever asked. I'd bet people just passing by outside the GW office building are actually licensed to make a Warhammer game.
ID: gq8avzqI don't mind them giving the license freely. Sure, big games are too few but I'd rather have that, with tons of little gems than the FIFA or Star Wars treatment where one company has all the rights and the customers don't have much of a choice.
ID: gq8m5qeAs of right now, we do have DARKTIDE to look forward to. For those that don't know, the Vermintide devs next game will be a similar format set in the 40k universe.
Darktide Trailer
ID: gq8l6hsI know it leads to a lot of duds but I'm honestly fine with it. Its better than when they barely gave the license out and we got fuck all. Now although we get a fair amount of mediocrity the approach has allowed us to get games like Mechanicus, Armageddon, the Battlefleet Gothic Armada games and Gladius. Its clear that a lot of studios want to work with the IP and this new laissez-faire attitude has let them actually work with it.
ID: gq8pi14What's weird is that in times of DoW and DoW2 they were really strict with their IP. They didn't give it to anyone and even DMCA mods.
But at some point they went "fuck it" and just give their IP to anyone who can type an email.
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Man I suck at RTS games, but DoW1 was exactly what me and my friends wanted as 40k fans. It really evokes the feeling of the 40k universe, and mechanically did fairly well at representing the units from the tabletop game.
Last year I booted up Dark Crusade again and had a pretty fun time with it.
ID: gq7ovwkOh yea, it's still great even if just for the scale. DoW 2 had some cool mechanics, but the multiplayer felt like a literal skirmish. We have like two dozen orcs and then suddenly we're against a chaos god? It wasn't nearly as satisfying as DoW 1's INFINITE ORC ENDGAME
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and strived to combine the best elements of the 1st Dawn of War and the 2nd,
I never got that one. Its something relic obviously stated in their interviews, and a bunch of people echoed but...
there is (almost?) nothing from DoW2 in DoW3. Every change made between the first two installments of the series is absent in third third one.
Units don't level, you don't pick a (1) customizeable hero as your centerpiece, no cover system, no garrison buildings, no destructable enviroments, base building is back, no RPG-esque singleplayer, no heavy weapon set up teams or cones of fire, no supression mechanic, units don't have accuracy and don't reload, the whole level of detail is just a massive step back from DoW2 in general, larger scope battles,
What did they even take from DoW2? Units being able to reinforce from transports maybe? If DoW3 was ment to be a hybrid of 1 and 2, its a very lopsided ratio.
ID: gq85ql3Indeed, when one tries to combine two things into one often the end result might be something that has neither.
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Always been a big fan of the first two games. Didn't get the 3rd after hearing what people thought of it when it came out. Waited ages, saw it for 3 quid or so on sale, and gave it a try. Given that I expected it to be utter garbage, I found it ok. The lore side of it wasn't great (flipping terminator armour etc), but as a basic rts it was fun enough. I just didn't think of it as a dawn of war game, just thought of it as an rts I got for 3 quid. I'd have been annoyed if I'd preordered it and paid full price and been all excited though. Another reason never to preorder anything I guess!
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I potential DoW4 would be... interesting to say the least.
I say that because 40k has undergone big changes since 2004, mainly around Space Marines. Primaris Marines are the new poster boys of the setting and what are pushed as being the POV characters, with the old Marines being relegated to the sides. In the tabletop it kind of works since none of the old Marines have been removed or replaced (even though Primaris are building up to a removal of the old range eventually) however within a video game context, if a new DoW was to come out if would be Primaris-only for the Marine faction.
So, any old players and fans of the previous game would be in for quite a shock when all those old units and terms have been replaced by the new stuff. No more Tacticals, Devastators, Assault Squads, Scouts or even Terminators. It'd probably generate a huge amount of salt.
ID: gq7hzaqNo more Tacticals, Devastators, Assault Squads, Scouts or even Terminators
I love 40k but I mostly stick to the games. It's hard to imagine Space Marines without Assault Squads, for me they're the poster boys of 40K, along with a Force Commander using a thunder hammer.
For anyone curious about what kind of units Primaris marines have, I found a wiki listing them:
The impression I have is that melee weapons aren't really used anymore, except for officers. If that's indeed true, a Dawn of War based on the newest armies and rules would indeed be very different.
ID: gq7xcwuGenuine question, how well are Primaris Marines received by the community nowadays?
As an outsider, I still think they are a bit odd. Lorewise, with the whole "Hey, we heard you like Space Marines, so we transform your Space Marines into better Space Marines", and that their armor is missing this iconic, open mouth shape from the Dawn of War Marines.
ID: gq7vypmWe just ignore that, like how Total War ignores the End Time
ID: gq80rroScouts or even Terminators.
Eh. Those are still around. Even Primaris begin their career in the scout company, and Terminators are the only first born who still get art and models with relative frequency. So atleast Termis are propably not going anywhere, anytime soon.
Its also worth pointing out perhaps that Primaris allready creeped into DoW3. Diomedes received an alternate Primaris skin post release. Though I have no idea if this implies that he canonically crossed the Rubicon or not.
ID: gq7mh1yEh, it depends on how hands on GW wants to be and how much they see a game as just marketting for mini sales. They could just set the game before primaris happened and stick to the old units the gameplay was designed around.
If not a lot of primaris are only very artificially different from normal marines for the sake of some weird fear of GWs that people would be mad if space marines got new models, especiallly if GW doesnt make them adhere strictly to the rulebook which would be absurd because theyve never done that. Most of the old stuff is still there and could be represented by primaris marines in some fairly analogous form, probably even more of it by the time a DoW4 could potentially come out.
ID: gq868upThey could stick to the old. Creative Assembly did. so with Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
ID: gq82ikxNo more Tacticals, Devastators, Assault Squads, Scouts or even Terminators.
Primaris are, in very broad terms, just Astartes 2.0 and have nearly the exact same organization and composition (give or take a few additions and omissions).
Tactical Squad = Intercessor Squad
Devastator Squad = Hellblaster Squad
Assault Squad = Inceptor Squad
Scout Squad = Reiver Squad
Terminators are in a weird place right now, where the majority of Astartes Chapters still use the original Firstborn Terminators with no 1:1 Primaris equivalent. Primaris do have Aggressors, who are heavily armored marines that can wield dual Stormbolters like the Terminators of old.
ID: gq8380540k setting changes don't matter that much. Game devs are under no obligation to keep up with it.
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I was a big fan of DoW1, avoided 2 because I knew it wasn’t the kind of game I was looking for. Picked up 3 for cheap much later, the buzz told me it wasn’t great.
I think the most emblematic thing for me of where DoW3 ended up is that there’s no cover system based on terrain, instead there are these... emplacements you move a ranged unit into, and a shield pops up around them. What an absurd replacement for a mechanic
ID: gq831weThe only time i played DoW3, I played as Tyranids (my tabletop faction). When it told me to hide in a bunker for cover, which is about the least Tyraniddy thing I can think of, I just decided it wasn’t the game I was looking for.
ID: gq7sqhlThat reeks to me of last minute addition or pure laziness ( maybe both ) . Like they were not planning to have a cover system or did not want one but like the AI team mates in Ghost recon breakpoint, it was something the fans expected and demanded of the series.
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Dawn of War 2 was the best RTS I have played. It changed the genre in such an interesting way that I am surprised it was never imitated in other games.
ID: gq8642tAgreed, I'm surprised at the general reception 2 gets online. I thought it was a fantastic game and it's squad based-RTS hybrid gameplay was really satisfying.
Plus how crazy powerful your main character is by endgame is awesome. I had a giant hammer and would leap into the middle of a horde of orcs and they would go flying in every direction. SO much fun.
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Fuck remasters. Let's get a proper 4th installment, where new ideas can be explored instead of rehashing old shit.
ID: gq7z9pnDawn of war 3 died trying... take soulstorm, put it on a new engine with updated graphics - all the races. Instant win.
ID: gq7kz9yDOW 3 showed us that new ideas are very bad when DOW1 was a solid base.
ID: gq7o64zIts gonna be terrible with Pr*maris though
ID: gq8uif5Nah. The series got progressively worse. A 4th installment is just going to be worse. A proper remaster with better effects and matchmaking is what I'd prefer.
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I would love a Dawn of War remaster. I'm a huge 40k lore nerd but never got into the tabletop gaming scene so the first DoW was the closest I could get.
DoW 2 was amazing for the campaign and the hero customization but we are really in need of a 40K game that nails the large scale battles that WH is known for.
ID: gq7su6nUltimate Apocolypse mod - "Am I a joke to you?"
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Gladius: Relics of War is now my go to dawn of war game. Its 4x instead of rts but damn do they do a good job and have added many races now. I have no hope for a remake of dow 1 but I can play gladius to get the same feelings.
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Then Dawn of War 2 came out and while I think its gameplay design and design philosophy overall were not as good, it had a lot of awesome things going for it; the campaign had A LOT of depth and in terms of an isolated single player experience I think it might have been THE best RTS ever made, even more so than Warcraft 3/Starcraft 2. Fair amount of players play these games focusing solely on the narrative and for those players, I feel like the game delivered on every level.
And don't forget co-op! It is one of the most satisfying games to play with a buddy. 2+2 squads really lets you squeeze the most out of the abilities and micromanagement, playing max difficulty like that is super rewarding.
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Great post, and I totally agree. DoW2 did some great experimentation and had a great single player experience (personally, I liked SC2: WoL more, but those 2 games + C&C3 & WC3 were the best of the best in RTS campaigns). I know Relic's publisher, THQ, fell out from under them during Company of Heroes 2's development, and I wonder if there was a mass exodus around that time. From an outsider perspective, Sega seems like a fine publisher, so I was really surprised when I tried the DoW3 beta and it just... felt like a downgrade, gameplay-wise, from the first 2 games. I couldn't believe they ripped out the cover system. I didn't even buy it.
I think from the lack of news on AoE4 (and 4 years in development), it's had a troubled development as well... So I wouldn't be surprised if, as others have said, most of the talent for DoW 1 & 2 are gone from Relic. I'm still holding out hope that they'll return to form and put out a DoW4 someday.
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I genuinely don't understand why a Warhammer RTS game went into the COH-style small-scale based RTS. I love COH, but it's the furthest thing from Warhammer I could possibly think of.
ID: gq8qyvrLots of reasons, technical and gameplay: Prettier models and somewhat guaranteed performance levels with the unit caps, You drive focus in gameplay towards picking the right tools for a given task rather than zerg rush with the cheapest units.
I agree that Warhammer being the universe of endless war with billions dying every day for little or no gain at all is weird to have as a smaller scale thing, but the game is great even with the small numbers. Hell, I still think DoW1 is the best 40k game that I've played!
Dammit, now i wanna install it all again...
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All I wanted is a stand alone, more polished, with more heroes version of the "Last Stand" mode. That's where I spent the majority of my time in DoW2. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the campaigns a lot, but the replayability of Last Stand was awesome.
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It feels like any time someone doesn't like the latest installment of a series (which for this game is justified) they put on the rose-tented glasses and pray for a remaster.
As Warcraft just showed remasters aren't magic. Just because you're afraid of the new doesn't mean you go back to the old.
ID: gq7w1g0While your statement is true to an extent, I disagree/have to chip in. I mean sure the game holds nostalgic value for me but I played it many times over the years and I still perceve it in a similar manner. Also, I'd like to think that I can critically look at games no matter what since I have some decent experience in game design/development.
I never even finished the Dark Crusade/Soulstorm campaigns so I fully agree, I mean it is pretty widely known that these campaigns are nothing more than glorified skrimishes. They are very mediocre at best. We are talking about the game as a whole though, the base game most of all.
Pathfinding could use some work but I've played many modern titles with less intuitive gameplay. Dawn of War is one of the most intuitive games I have ever played, for example all the animation timings actually affect gameplay, you could compare them to invincibility frames in dark souls. I am aware that two things greatly differ but the overall concept is similar.
You can just tell when a game was heavily playtested, when I play Dawn of War 1 despite its flaws it clearly went through numerous prototyping and everything was crafted with care and passion. Dawn of War 3 lacks that.
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I played through the campaign co-op with a friend for 1 and 2. Never knew there was a 3rd, not a huge Warhammer fan but it was great strategy coop game to play through. I was always surprised to see it disappear.
And you’re absolutely right, additional cosmetic options would’ve been a nice add on as you are growing and customizing your squad members for missions
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What didn’t you look about the UI? I don’t remember it bothering me.
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That's what they get for trying to make a starcraft clone for esports...
They literally could have redone DOW1 or DOW2 exactly the same and people would have been amazed.
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Yeah, it's really a tragedy. I still prefer the first game much more than second, but both have something that DoW 3 is missing. A soul. They weren't 100% lore friendly, but they really did you immerse you into the world, with the world building, the gore the music and the voice lines. Everything felt authentic and even as the 40K noob I was back then, it still was a great stepping stone into the universe.
And now we have DoW 3 that says "fuck it" to any kind of immersion and gives us Space Marines that drop like flies, strange Eldar tech shield bubbles that Orks and humans can operate and stealth grass.
Sometimes, I'm tempted to buy DoW on G2A for cheap, just to see how bad it is, but I think even that is not worth it.
All in all, I'm still happy to see that DoW continues to live, thanks to the awesome modding scene with Ultimate Apocalypse and Unification.
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Mhm. My dream is a remaster of DoW1 ( in the spirit of Reforged, just not half-arsed ) -
a new expansion for DoW2 ( Admech? Genestealer Cults? Sisters? Anything. )
And then a DoW4 that learned from the mishaps of DoW3.
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The Reveal trailer was SO FUCKING GOOD link. It really hammered home how fucked up that universe is when a Space Marine is smiling in all the carnage as his life is about to end.t
What a shame what we got was Gabriel Angelos doing somersaults in the air with a Thunder Hammer...
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there needs to be a next great 40k RTS, but i'm not sure relic are the ones to make it given their many split interests.
it's a bit out of left field but i'd love to see creative assembly try their hand at RTS. i know TW games technically have RTS combat, but it's a different genre really, not the smaller scale, faster paced style of traditional RTS with high micro requirement and resources. they absolutely nailed FPS horror with alien isolation so they're not a one trick pony and clearly have a great relationship with GW.
frost giant games (the blizzard refugee studio) would do well to secure a 40k license too if they're planning to do anything sci-fi. will give them a massive headstart on IP recognition, rather than just seeming like a store brand starcraft.
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Honestly ultimate apocalypse is good enough for me dawg
Every single damn thing you can think of in one awesome 40k mod
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Just recently I was thinking about a DoW1 remaster. I agree with you, but in one thing - in the remaster, they would need to fix the pathfinding. How units just get stuck when there are too many of them. I love the game, but it always annoyed me when I needed to get my vehicle through my army of infantry. It is almost impossible.
But damn, if they fixed this, put some nice new graphics on and maybe some more maps and customization as you say... I would drop a laod of money on that.
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All I wanted was The Last Stand mode in DoW3 , sad they fucked the game up so bad we won't ever see that.
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A remaster of DoW 1, even with just the 4 factions, would sell like hot cakes. If they did a remaster like starcraft using the same engine, even better as there are so many mods for it.
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Dawn of war 3 wasn't even that bad, I had a lot of fun playing the campaign. Why did the gaming zeitgeist decide that dow 3 was shit? Did a woman write it or something? Lol
ID: gq7lc0gIt was just about expectations. They gave a hardcore competitive pvp experience to a community of people that wanted expansive campaigns and Armageddon mass army mods. Even though the things DoW 3 tried to do, it did right, it will pretty much forever be judge for what it didn’t do.
Any kind of hardcore competitive RTS these days is doomed on startup anyway because there just isn’t an audience for it. If you look at SC2, most players want custom games and coop commander updates.
ID: gq7ezwwBecause it followed 2 games that were absolutely head and shoulders above the mess that 3 turned out to be
ID: gq7yyusI am in this camp. I feel DOW 3 returned to form of DOW 1. Honestly DOW 2 is nice and all but lack of base building and just squad drop in multiplayer just isn't what I wanted coming from DOW 1 which was massively about building along with map control. 2 didn't have this and it just made no sense why it just became company of heroes 40k edition minus engineers.
3 at least attempted at going back to DOW 1 style and did get my attention because I enjoy base building and not having one building does everything. I bought DOW to make armies and crazy waaaagh tower walls not fucking sit there managing 3-5 squads only.
I really don't understand how 2 can be praised when it literally dumbed down every and made it a 40k skin on top of CoH basically.
Thank you for coming to my waaaagh talk.
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Imagine thinking that the garbage that is DOW2 is a good sequel but DOW3 that is much closer to the original game isn't.
ID: gq8qwxsDOW2 was a good sequel
引用元:https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/m0dcxt/the_tragedy_of_dawn_of_war_3_i_still_up_to_this/
CoH2 has 9,000 daily players? That's seriously impressive