Dear gamedevs, if the story requires us to fight with an AI on our team against enemies, don’t make them anemic, increase enemy count.

1 : Anonymous2021/03/08 14:20 ID: m0gn6h

I was playing Borderlands 3 and during one of the handful of scenes where one of the main cast of characters was fighting alongside me I was watching them do basically no damage despite being some sort of OP siren.

Instead they could have made her spew out awesome spells left and right like in the cutscenes and amaze me instead of faking some sort of teamplay by making her deal 5% of the damage I do.

Well, maybe Borderlands is not the best example because she was phaselocking some enemies from time to time, but you know what I mean, right? There's plenty of games that do this.

Increase the number of enemies or their difficulty to counteract the friendly NPC being good at what they do so they don't just carry you.

2 : Anonymous2021/03/08 14:27 ID: gq7o4nv

I once used a mod for Mass Effect 2 that made your teammates do the same damage as you do (I believe normally it's half your damage, or maybe less), and it actually felt like they were there to help me instead of occasionally taking aggro for 2 seconds while I shoot something. Hardest difficulty was actually enjoyable and not a bullet sponge chore where your teammates died constantly.

Way too many games do that, CoD is a prime example about how most of the time the enemies just fire at you and your AI teammates do no damage or can't aim, although in both examples it's a deliberate design choice so that the player doesn't get an experience that's too easy, which as you said could be easily counteracted by more or stronger AI.

ID: gq8aav7

I once used a mod for Mass Effect 2 that made your teammates do the same damage as you do

FCR3, a Witcher 3 mod made by a CDPR dev, also does this (among a lot of other things)

Pretty sure developers are aware of this, but this is a prime example of protecting the players from themselves. If this weren't the case, half of the players would intentionally cheese the game by hiding while their team mates took out the enemy, and half of the other half would do it unintentionally. The only people that would experience it in the intended way would be the remaining quarter, if that

ID: gq8fyyg

in Mass Effect 3, this is not necessary, because you can spec out garrus to do the game for you on insanity.

ID: gq7oktq

Do you rember the name of the mod?

ID: gq7v84w

Honestly depends on the game, Kotor pulls it off well. Your party will never be as powerful as you are but its okay because you're a god with infinite lightning. In most FPS its annoying and breaks immersion, npc could be using the same exact gun firing the same exact bullets but yet their impacts might as well be an airsoft gun

ID: gq84y6s

although in both examples it's a deliberate design choice so that the player doesn't get an experience that's too easy,

so these devs would rather us play a game that plays out the same way everytime rather than mixing it up?

lets my AI companion clean em up for me

ID: gq89tlj

Does CoD actually do that? I was under the impression that the friendly AI in those games is fairly reactive to what you do i.e. if you push then they'll kill enemies in the parts of the map you're not to keep the "front" straight, its something I have relied on in when completing them on the highest difficulties. The enemy AI notably chooses targets based on your difficulty level too, the higher the difficulty the more enemies will shoot at you instead of your team-mates with that and the amount of bullets that get fired before you get hit being one of the main sliders they use behind the scenes.

3 : Anonymous2021/03/08 15:18 ID: gq7ukj4

One of the better things spec ops the line made was your allies where actually badass and you could easily win just by waiting in the cover. Arena 51 is another game with similar good ai companions.

ID: gq8a1lb

You had to be careful with them on the higher difficulties. The would kill enemies but they would also be overly aggressive and get themselves down. Half the hardness of the FUBAR difficulty was using them effectively.

4 : Anonymous2021/03/08 16:27 ID: gq8413c

Increase the number of enemies or their difficulty to counteract the friendly NPC being good at what they do so they don't just carry you.

I doubt they were capable of increasing the number of enemies significantly without running into performance issues on consoles. Developers are pretty constantly tweaking settings to make things look as good as possible while getting the expected performance, and significantly upping the baddies for a final fight can mess things up. And just making the baddies more tanky is never fun. They probably planned out something bigger initially, but had to cut scope for practical concerns.

I bet the designers involved agree with you in theory, but there are always compromises in practice. I'd also bet the majority of players didn't actually notice how little impact the friendly NPC had, so it was a pretty easy call to get the game out.

ID: gq84p46

Yeah, hopefully going forward we'll see new hardware power put into things other than graphics, which honestly look good enough right now, even without raytracing. Better AI, more AI, more players, no loading screens etc.

5 : Anonymous2021/03/08 16:45 ID: gq86kuh

This shit happens in nearly all games and it's really annoying, especially PVE games like The Division 2.. completely ruins the experience for players

6 : Anonymous2021/03/08 17:08 ID: gq89x4o

I feel like there's just no good answer to this problem.

Either your NPC friend is a feeble, ineffective chump and they may as well not be there... Or they're an effective force and the player could just let the NPC do all the work for that segment of the game which is bad because it "diminishes player impact", so to speak.

It's really hard to integrate NPCs into a fight in a meaningful way, IMO.

Either you're a witness to the NPC, or the NPC is a witness to you. Trying to find a good middle ground is really tough.

ID: gq8lqet

The Halo series does a decent job with this, at least giving an excuse for why the Marines seem relatively ineffective on their own by having the player be a crazy powerful super soldier

7 : Anonymous2021/03/08 16:13 ID: gq821yj

increasing enemy count = more resources, sadly.

ID: gq83max

I'm sure that can be adjusted, even if only for that fight.

8 : Anonymous2021/03/08 16:23 ID: gq83goy

Witcher 3 is so guilty of this, one would think that triss` fireballs would do more than tickle the enemy

ID: gq83kk5

Yep, that's one of them for sure.

9 : Anonymous2021/03/08 14:45 ID: gq7qcwj

It comes down time constraints most of the time. If it's for like one story event I don't mind if either the enemies are a letdown or the AI is. Making a super competent AI teammate is a lot of work on its own for one story event is a lot of work and game development is a grueling process. If it's for a full game though where an AI will be with you constantly though that's pretty inexcusable and should be considered.

ID: gq8usxg

AITeamDamageValue * X = Problem solved, in a lot of cases.

10 : Anonymous2021/03/08 17:05 ID: gq89gf5

I've been playing dragon's dogma lately and this is one of the few games where I've seen competent companions who can make your life easier, and dish out decent amount of damage. Not just damage, but they'll do other stuff like stun an enemy, blind them, and if your fighting a giant orc or something they'll literally jump on giant enemy, climb on it and help out in other ways.

It's a pretty old game but I was astonished as to how well the ai works in this game and puts new games to shame.

Only thing I don't like is that these mfs will also quickly run to steal loot for themselves ahaha

ID: gq8uw8u

One that stood out to me was Outer Worlds, they could dominate if you want them to.

11 : Anonymous2021/03/08 18:30 ID: gq8ls7s

Code Vein was awesome with this.

Your AI teammate was a death machine and even a carry in some fights.

I think it was designed with some coop in mind so that's why the AI teammate was pretty good.

Also I think more games need difficulty sliders for situations like you had with the teammate damage.

Pathfinder Kingmaker has so many options for difficulty and it's just glorious.

Let us customize our own difficulties.

Maybe I don't want bullet sponges but I need to increase enemy accuracy or frequency to compensate.

Let me make that choice!

12 : Anonymous2021/03/08 19:31 ID: gq8ua9e

Yes, there are so few that have worthwhile team AI. Either make them somewhat competent or don't even do.

As for the solution being more enemies. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of games are held back because of what consoles can do. I look at a lot of games that fit this bill and think, if there was more this would be a lot more fun.

13 : Anonymous2021/03/08 16:50 ID: gq87cjh

I don't like having to trust AI teammates to actually be useful. It is better when they fill a support role. In an ideal world, an AI teammate could be trusted to be as useful as a second "you" on the team, but more realistically, they might get stuck in a corner the entire scene and you're left to solo the rest.


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