The more you think about it, the more you start to realize that greatly limiting high end armor and ammo is almost NECESSARY

1 : Anonymous2021/10/29 12:15 ID: qibgrc

1) Limiting high end ammo and armor brings the game closer in line with its intended vision

Everyone loves to talk about how this is a hardcore, survival, realistic shooter, where wits and intelligence matter. It doesn't really feel that way when it gets to the point where people have an endless supply of elite gear, high end stems, and top quality guns. People charge into their deaths with this stuff, and don't even care because they know that they have an unlimited amount of it right around the corner. (I'm not bashing the chad lifestyle, I actually greatly enjoy it and will come back to this in just a second)

Dying with elite gear would actually mean something if it just wasn't readily available, and had to be scavenged, crafted, or fought for.

2) All gear would instantly become much more usable if 5/6 tier armor and ammo were greatly restricted.

If you run AKs, when was the last time you ran PS ammo? The first 2 days of the wipe?

When the wipe period, which ends very quickly for a lot of people around here, is over, its straight to BS or Igolnik.

By making it so the only thing you can guarantee purchase with ease is tier 4 armor, you are still relatively threatened by most rounds. You aren't just a tank that can run around and eat rounds with ease. You could still engage in fast paced pvp too, since your average rounds would still be highly effective.

5) With the above point, the game becomes much more accessible to casuals.

I think the fact of the matter is, it takes a REALLY long time to get relevant in Tarkov. Opening the flea market late into a wipe, with a standard account, and without prior mission knowledge guarantees you're in for a long ride.

By reducing the availability of top tier ammo and armor, you give the common man a chance to actually do okay in combat. Obviously higher level traders should give you slightly better gear which gives you a slight edge, but I don't think it should be a complete blow out like it is now.

6) The crafts and miscellaneous items you find lying around will mean so much more, and lead to more interesting decisions in raid.

I can't tell you how many items I just straight up blow past in favor of more cost per slot items. In almost no situation is it more favorable to have junk over cold hard rubles.

I think it would be interesting if you picked up an expeditionary fuel can which is obviously valuable, but you stumble across a couple tubs of gun powder which can get you some high end ammo. Instead of just playing the calculator game to determine which is worth more, you now need to decide if you would rather have the extended power the fuel gives you, or would you like the rounds the powder gives you.

Just something to consider.

Edit; a commenter below said this and it really encapsulated a lot of what I’m trying to say

It would just make high tier shit special so youd have to save it for a reason not just save up money to print out 100 kits anytime you want. I think the idea here is to make level 4/shit level 5 armor the average tier 4 trader. And to make the ammo that pens these at a normal rate (non BS,M955,M61 etc). The idea is to make the norm, the norm and the highest tier something worth holding onto for labs or reserve or something. You might have to farm lower difficulty maps before you can start risking the higher tier maps. YOud also prob want to assign different overall loot values to the maps too or randomize it depending on the day so that theres a reason to bring certain types/levels of gear to those zones. Tarkov is supposed to have survival aspects, what you guys like right now is just COD with extra steps and a bit more realistic gunplay.

2 : Anonymous2021/10/29 13:22 ID: hiicqs2

I’m not 100% on this but isn’t the abundance of all the gear there for testing purposes? I get the feeling that Tarkov will never be “balanced” or “completed”. It’s only there as a building block for their next game

ID: hij8rh9

That's such a cop out imo

ID: hijivz3

They know that, and actually have said a lot of what you propose will be later in the game.

Wait for inertia, using lvl 6 heavy armor and altyn should be a pain after that, also using heavier guns with big mags.

ID: hiid63v

I don’t think it was initially, but it’s starting to look like it more and more.

The only thing I don’t understand is how much more data they can get from it.

People have been running high end gear almost every run from the first week (first day in some cases) of the wipe for years now.

ID: hijh848

Well the parameters always change.
The weight system introduction changed alot (when was the last time you saw someone with a fort).
also they removed the high pen ammo from traders and then reintroduced it as a craftable (where they also changed stuff )
All of these create a new field for gathering data.
Soon Armor Hitboxes will be a thing and I wonder how the Armor and ammo Meta will change with that, maybe flesh ammo will become more popular, cause you now have a higher chance of not hitting the plate

ID: hijrp1u

I think it was said that its balanced around 6 month wipe cycle. It should change next year

3 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:00 ID: hiiqfye

the majority of players, even seasoned, are not running every raid in class6 that is false. even when playing labs, resort, dorms, reserve.

Most players are running good class 4 (tv110...) or mid tier class5 (redut, gen4...) a ok tier modded ak with armor piercing ammo. that make streamer / nolifer having a slight edge with their class6. but not that by much (like tanking 1 or 2 more bullets, which is good, but not insane)

the problem you describe is only met with player who don't have access to flea market. you can clearly see the problem early wipe, with streamer running tagilla + slick + ap-20 (low armor tier stomper), they one thorax everything, noone can get them.

while lvl 4 ragman barter are a clearly op and need higher overall price, harshly reducing access to class5 / armor piercing ammo will mostly affect seasoned, casuals, making mr streamer totaly unkillable, creating the exact problem you are talking about.

it will not make any difference for casual vs casual or seasoned vs seasoned combat, since mid tier ammo vs class 4 = exact same ttk of high tier ammo vs class5 (it could be even lower since mid tier ammo have higher damage but lower piercing...)

4 : Anonymous2021/10/29 12:33 ID: hii6n8f

Limiting Gear / Ammo only hurts the Casual Player / New Player.

I semi-agree with what you are saying, however Chads will be Chads. They use the first good gear set they get to go out and get more good gear. Generally they have the time / skill to accumulate the gear. If the casual is limited even further they have no chance competing with high level PMC's. No matter how much gear / ammo is limited, if it spawns it will be used / stockpiled by competent players.

At least at the moment, as soon as you hit level 15 you can some what compete with Meta Gear through the fact you can purchase good ammo.

ID: hiiplg9

Changing literally anything only hurts the casual players.

ID: hik5v52

not necessarily, changing the btc coin farmer to an easily obtainable, but lower roi would benefit the casuals much more, especially if you let it bank up more btc.

ID: hiiarzf

Not limiting all ammo/gear, limiting the high end ammo/gear. Why tf ragman 4 sells an AACPC for a barter worth like 100k while on lvl2 the most you can get is a rat rig for 50k?

ID: hiid4h8

Traders are a huge benefit, but my point is that no matter how much you limit it (without basically removing it) competent / active players will accumulate the gear and the gap in gear becomes even more apparent regardless of the traders.

A PMC running 20 Raids a day with a 60%+ Survival Rate will accumulate much more good gear than a casual / new player running 10 with a 20% Survival Rate. You'll still have good players running meta gear except now its harder for the newer player to find it so they can compete - Especially later in the wipe cycle.

ID: hij161t

Dude you act like ragman lvl 4 doesn’t take the average player 100 hours or more to achieve.

ID: hiiow7p

Because you put in the time and effort to get ragman 4 so you are rewarded with better deals. It makes perfect sense lmfao

ID: hiil6bc

This isnt true at all, tarkov doesnt force you to fight. Only simpletons who dont understand the purpose of the game think they need to take every fight. If anything it will help casuals to know when to play passively. (If i see a dude running around in meta gear, that is like seeing an open world raid boss, AVOID). Also true casuals shouldnt have to grind just to fight against average players. The way it is now any jackass can go get level 6 gear and high pen ammo for cheap just by grinding for hours, making it so that skilled casuals do not really get to play.

ID: hiim29o

It’s a PvP game - you can’t always avoid the fight. But that wasn’t my point its competent players like to take most fights and because of that you’ll find chads will be stockpiling gear from PvP while the people actively avoiding it will have to reply on stashes etc to provide good gear which puts them at a disadvantage when they eventually do have to fight an open world raid boss ahaha

ID: hiiwvje

Limiting Gear / Ammo only hurts the Casual Player / New Player.

So what. Casual players should be happy to have a ratnik and a gun with more than 50% durability

The vast majority of people shouldn't be using anything better than a lvl 4 armor and mid teir gun

In fact i'd go so far as to say make everything better than lvl3 and an ak74 extremely rare

ID: hiiybvr

Not disagreeing with your first point, Tarkov isn't casual friendly. But the original post was targeting players who can run meta gear like its nothing - my point was that the suggestion of removing a lot of the higher level gear isn't going to affect the active player as much as they want it too; only going to shaft the casual more.

ID: hiilwa6

No matter how much gear / ammo is limited, if it spawns it will be used / stockpiled by competent players.

Which is a problem that can be solved. Gear in your hideout degrades over time, even if not used. Your guns gather dust, your armor goes threadbare.

ID: hiimapj

Creative solution to the problem, would make more sense than removing flea / traders etc IMO.

ID: hiin32w

Not a bad idea, but honestly its still better than having complete liquidity to make as many high tier kits as you want. If anything this proposal (the post) is smart as it makes having storage upgrades more valuable. You should be able to stockpile, thats way diff than grinding rep to be able to afford fixed price bullshit meta loadouts.

5 : Anonymous2021/10/29 14:23 ID: hiil26g

No not really. The more I think about it. The more I realize the reddit community doesn't actually play the game.

ID: hiiwr4t

I'm level 11 and here's why I should be the new lead dev.....

Too True.

6 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:39 ID: hiiwcas

Even if they greatly limit it, the haves and have nots will still remain the same. If you play a game a lot, you will level faster and get access to good stuff faster. Even if they make it super hard to get xyz gear, they will get it and wreck your shit with it. Just be glad it's available to Timmy's at 15 too.

ID: hiiyt9v

I think the difference is that you having access to the high end stuff won't be so damn OP.

Ragman level 4 can be off the chain.

And yes, there will always be the haves and the have nots. But I think shrinking the disparity would be an excellent change.

7 : Anonymous2021/10/29 16:26 ID: hij3ihv

Sounds like you want more rng in the game, forcing players to run shit ammo only to run into someone with high tier gear sounds stupid. Players who earn their loot should be able to use it however they want. It's how tarkov works. Some players stay broke and others earn their gear, stop trying to limit those players to fit your playstyle.

You talk about high tier armor being a complete blowout... Maybe for you? I've died plenty of times with high tier gear. I've killed plenty of players with a pistol running pst who had high tier gear. You make it sound like we're playing different games. Gear doesn't matter as much as you think, you're just bad if you can't kill them.

ID: hij4yqd

I’m not trying anyone to fit my play style. In fact, I think this change would be more liberating than anything.

Everyone would be more able to do as they please. Dorms could be challenged more often and more directly, though there still would run the risk of someone who scrounged some high end gear together getting there first.

And yeah, we’ve all had those awesome 5-7 claps take down a chad, but we all know they are very few and far between. Gear definitely is a game changer, and it’s fucking expensive for someone who can’t dump hours upon hours into this game

ID: hij5ewr

Making money is easy in this game. It's my first wipe and I'm not struggling. The problem is in your head you think this will win you more fights when it just won't. Go rock the most meta kit and then come back and tell me how you just stream rolled entire servers over and over. You just won't, because gear doesn't matter as much as you think. And I had pst ammo in my pistol it was right when I was starting so it was a Glock and I killed a heavily geared trio at the end of last wipe when I first got the game. Have yet to try a 5 7.

8 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:49 ID: hiixwco

All these posts show how much everyone thinks gear>map knowledge and gun skill. mid tier ammo does pretty decent flesh damage and most helmets don’t reliably stop basic rounds. It’s really not that hard to pick your fights if you have the overall game knowledge to help you. game knowledge trumps even the best gear.

ID: hikk5to

What a bad take. The point is that meta gear is so strong it mitigates bad gun play. A full meta m4 has over 50 ergo and under 40 recoil. What gun skill? Its point and click at that point since the gun doesnt move. And the hexgrid that lets you absorb 12 ap6.3 rounds lol.

ID: hiko2gb

hahaha no it’s not. maybe meta gear is so strong if you run around with tier 2-3 armour and a pistol. If you don’t have access to high pen you run flesh damage. Depending on your ammo and weapon is how you approach situations. If you have a shotgun you don’t engage from far away unless running ap20. engage based on your strengths. if the fuckers wearing class 6 everything then maybe put the ap20’s in his stomach if it’s not protected or fuck his legs up. it’s really not that hard. i’ve played eft for a few years and i can confidently tell you that if someone with little game knowledge runs the best gear possible against me with even a basic ps ak. i can probably take him down majority of the time.

i also don’t think i’ve ever had any armour about more than 6 ap20 rounds.

ID: hik4ud4

All these posts show how much everyone thinks gear>map knowledge and gun skill

But after you enter something like Resort most of your map knowledge won't help you.

mid tier ammo does pretty decent flesh damage and most helmets don’t reliably stop basic rounds.

Map knowledge also won't help you if your aim and PvP skill is not good. I mean, you need to hit that helmet first, right?

Picking your fights and map knowledge help to stay alive for sure. But winning engagements? It sure help with camping, but you don't really need more than a gun with with proper sight and a mag of good ammo for that.

ID: hik7cfl

How would map knowledge not help you with entering resort? it’s part of the map right? You’ve played the map hundreds of times and know where majority of players like to camp or move around to.

I dont really understand what the rest of your reply is supposed to mean though. Having good gear only really benefits you when you understand the map, gunplay and game knowledge. Of course map knowledge doesn’t benefit you in a head on gunfight but it helps set up ambushes and know where players most likely will be moving to.

9 : Anonymous2021/10/29 18:51 ID: hijpx63

My guess is that this change isn't coming until the game is relatively feature complete. The devs need to collect data for balance purposes and the best way to do that is by keeping the numbers of these items relatively high.

10 : Anonymous2021/10/29 16:38 ID: hij5bla

You should probably do more thinking then, clearly you haven't done enough of it.

By reducing the availability of top tier ammo and armor, you give the common man a chance to actually do okay in combat.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's literally the polar opposite lmfao. All this does is give grinders even more of an advantage.

Fact of the matter is you CANNOT equalize the experiences of people who grind hundreds of hours every wipe and more casual players. The gap is not really closable without loot being reasonably abundant and mechanics like the flea. By going overboard and messing with the already delicate risk-reward of Tarkov you run the risk of running it into the ground, like we've seen from the previous round of loot nerfs when the game was turned into a boring ghost town. We've already seen firsthand the effects of nerfing things like loot and gear availability to the point where scarcity becomes a problem. Do you actually play the game? I cannot imagine queueing up some Interchange raids right now and coming out with the conclusion that the game should be even deader and less rewarding than before.

I don't get where this idea of "scarcity good" comes from. Yeah it fits with the game's aesthetic but scarcity is not actually fun in practice. Tarkov is enjoyable because it presents you with the illusion of scarcity while letting you transcend that and progress by gaining loot. If every single raid was full of Slick/Exfil/Altyns you might have a point, but this is obviously nowhere close to being the case...this game needs MORE people running gear and PvPing, not less.

ID: hijd1he

Agreed I just don't see my lobbies filled with lvl 5-6 armor with meta rounds. I sometimes wonder if these people just play a different game.

11 : Anonymous2021/10/29 12:23 ID: hii5ht7

it will rise current mid tier ammoe and armor right to the top and you will get the same situation. it will change nothing.

12 : Anonymous2021/10/29 12:30 ID: hii69j6

The more things change the more they stay the same?

13 : Anonymous2021/10/29 13:07 ID: hiiatis

we don’t need to balance filler content

14 : Anonymous2021/10/29 13:08 ID: hiiav3l

Okay and when will you realize that making ammo and armor that is already barely used more rare will just make the game more boring and less playable? I keep seeing people wanting these "hardcore" changes which in reality is just wanting the game to be more annoying and unplayable.

15 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:02 ID: hiiqqa5

I saw a pretty sweet comment on here a little while back that having something similar to metro where bullets could also act as a currency. Maybe this would show ammo to be a bit more valuable and in turn more expensive / harder to aquire.

I agree that ammo is heavily required if you want to kill folks quickly AT ALL. I'm a level 23 and this is my first wipe ever and am just now feeling comfortable in PMC fights. It's night and day shooting the same gun with different ammo.

Although folks are saying it's gonna be different when the game is out, how do you prevent people from grinding scavs or quests in a few days to rack up rouble count for expensive stuff. I don't see how things can be set to a similar playing field without a wipe to reset everyone.

16 : Anonymous2021/10/29 12:23 ID: hii5iwe

You'd be better off letting people into the flea earlier vs rearrange the ammo and armor meta.

ID: hii6321

I disagree, we've had this before and people just complained about people running slicks several hours into the wipe

ID: hii6m4f

Well then you must accept that it's tough for casuals to get into. It's not fair that a top tier player has no real defense to a lvl 1 trader all for them paying to play with the flea but my top tier armor shouldn't be paper compared to lvl 1 ammo

17 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:33 ID: hiiveoz

*cough git rid of fleamarket = game git gud

18 : Anonymous2021/10/29 14:22 ID: hiikylw

Yes yes yes yes, for some reason so many people just want to play COD with extra steps. This is supposed to be about scrounging shit together not meta cucks.

19 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:12 ID: hiisaib

Everyone loves to talk about how this is a hardcore, survival, realistic shooter, where wits and intelligence matter

People love doing this because it makes them feel better about playing a looter shooter with a tactical varnish.

20 : Anonymous2021/10/29 17:52 ID: hijgyl2

Generally agreed

The issue is that the impact of ammo type in this game is FAR too large

IRL, if i have M855 loaded in my IRL rifle, i can drop you just as easy as if i had M995, no matter what armor you wear

IRL: Armor doesnt win fights, it reduces fatalities

Thats a big distinction

Plate hitboxes should address a LOT of the issues, by letting a LOT more damage get past your armor, meaning an Ak loaded with HollowPoints will still be VERY dangerous against an Altyn/Slick player, even if they aim center mass, as they should

Ive said it for years, the benefit of good armo

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should be SUBTLE

Not night and day, as it is now

You can LITERALLY lose/win fights because of the armo

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involved, and thats just wrong

A tactically bad player should get little to no benefit from running higher tier stuff

A tactically solid player should get the most benefit from higher tier gear, as they can survive well enough WITHOUT it, and having it just gives them that SLIGHT edge of forgiveness

21 : Anonymous2021/10/29 13:01 ID: hii9yu3

Balancing would still be a problem because people would try farming kill scav bosses and guard (raider) for gear. the only thing viable for normal player is rat or sniper playstyle because everytime you running any map like custom. People would rushing just trying to get scav boss kill.

Edit: I realised what I said is dumb and inconsistent with the current status of the wipe.

ID: hiiazik

People already do that anyway.

Reserve control room is crazy right off the rip because people are constantly trying to take out the raiders there.

People used to rush interchange for killa when his spawn was more centralized.

And people run routes hunting reshala.

It’s still part of the meta imo

23 : Anonymous2021/10/29 16:19 ID: hij2fzh

This will all be solved by a true supply/demand economy based off a global loot table.

Basically, you can have incredibly OP things, and even have the traders sell it, and the frequency of buying it and it's demand versus a highly limited global supply, will mean the price will skyrocket.

They introduce the new Double Mutant that shoots .306 at full auto with no recoil, and people will buy it out immediately. They'll restock at a higher price, over and over again, until there's basically 1 or 2 left that aren't in the world and they'll cost thousands and thousands of USD for one gun.

24 : Anonymous2021/10/29 18:01 ID: hijiamp

Something like this, yeah.

Having a dynamic loot table that is linked to 100 different factors ( average player level, number of roubles in circulation, time since wipe, etc ) would be cool.

But in order to get it right you would need to hire an in-game economist like EVE online did.

25 : Anonymous2021/10/29 18:03 ID: hijij11

Well the thing is, they don't need to get it right at all.

In fact, getting it wrong seems to be an intentional gameplay feature.

Them getting it wrong would just be covered up by "scarcity" or "surplus" events.

Oops well there was only supposed to be 1000 HK's in circulation but today there's 10,000 so that decent gun will be readily available for a while.

But then as that is "fixed" and that extra supply dries up, prices changes again.

26 : Anonymous2021/10/29 20:14 ID: hik2lna

Have you thought about getting good?

27 : Anonymous2021/10/29 20:36 ID: hik5vpp


28 : Anonymous2021/10/29 20:47 ID: hik7mho

Second piece of advice, have you tried not being bad?

29 : Anonymous2021/10/29 15:36 ID: hiivt8p

Release is a distant dream, I think people would like to see these changes sooner rather than later.

Also, as I mentioned to someone else, high end gear has been pretty common place within the first week of the wipe for years now. What more data can they possibly be gathering from it.

Real data would be gathered on making this stuff scarce.

30 : Anonymous2021/10/29 18:50 ID: hijpsi1

Don’t knock 7.62x39 PS ammo… I still run that on my budget runs. It’ll 1 tap pretty much any helmet except Altyns. I still get plenty of PMC kills while running PS

31 : Anonymous2021/10/29 19:29 ID: hijvjln

I firmly believe the only things you should be able to buy from flea should be food items and barter goods. Weapons, armor, and ammo are extremely valuable and if you wanna trade those items you should need to take the risk of entering a raid to do so.

32 : Anonymous2021/10/29 20:56 ID: hik8yal

This is what my personal perfect state would be in (again, personal):

Remove Flea Market or restrict it heavily to be only small items or "trash". Basically things you would typically sell at a real flea market, excess things you're trying to get rid of (not just for profit).

Make all high tier loot found in-raid only. Unable to trade via flea market (can make in-raid trades like the old days).

Move items around in traders to be mostly barters for higher end weapons, ammunition, etc and keeping currency only to smaller items like consumables and some of the lower red dots/mods.

Have Scavs only ever use the low tier "trash" ammunition but have barters from Prapor and Peacekeeper (Bea

) that allow for bartering of other ammunition types IE 60 PS for 30 BT. Makes looting the lower tier ammunition worth taking.

Just these changes alone, for me, would put the game in a much better state and feel much healthier. More people going in-raid instead of staring at a market board.

33 : Anonymous2021/10/29 21:26 ID: hikd7x5

They've said multiple times that they intend to make high end armor and ammo more rare as the game gets closer to release.

34 : Anonymous2021/10/29 22:01 ID: hikibix

Level 4 armor should be the most used armor tier then 5, 6 should be so rare its almost like key cards. But with this comes the need to reduce m61 and 995 counts through out the game. Im okay with non headshot ttk going up a second or two.

35 : Anonymous2021/10/29 22:07 ID: hikj507

I think the game would benefit from less high tier armour and ammo. Make these items FIR only. I shouldn’t be able to buy a full meta gear like that. Considering we are in a region in Russia that is cut off why can I buy the best gear, doesn’t make sense. The reason why early wipe is exciting is because everyone has an equal chance and these skills of map knowledge and game play come through , everyone has a chance to kill anyone. Later in the wipe people get bored, everyone is running around with meta gear and the difference between ps rounds and bp or m61 are vast. It loses its charm winning gun fights when you have the best gear plus you have no fear of dying because you can just replace that gear. This game is about surviving and trying to survive with the god gear you have, you lose that feeling when you can just buy new gear. If this high tier gear was truly rare chads can’t store it no matter how much they play as it’s still rare and they will have to loot to get these items instead of buying them. Make armour over level 4 only FIR. Any ammo higher pen than say 35-40 make found in round with higher chances for bolt action gun ammo maybe. Make incentives for them.

36 : Anonymous2021/10/29 22:32 ID: hikmhyy

All your points about gear balance and availability are true for extending the life of early wipe feels and combat, however we can't judge the economy off as it is now. Everything is avaliable now so we can get it and test it. It's all subject to change on release as Nikita as said before in many podcasts and interviews. I'm not just circle jerking the "It's beta" argument, but it is true to an extent. They have to provide us with something to play and test and keep us playing but will also need to test all the things they add which we can't do if only the upper 20 percent of the player base can access it. Your absolutely right and I agree with you, but its a discussion for post 1.0 TBH.

37 : Anonymous2021/10/29 23:40 ID: hikveze

4 Points, labelled as 1, 2, 5, 6.... I think you need to edit this.

38 : Anonymous2021/10/29 17:20 ID: hijbw8h

Just get rid of the flea Market, it automatically makes everything found in raid more valuable. But idk how that would effect everyone, just seems like a decent idea.

39 : Anonymous2021/10/29 16:08 ID: hij0ptq


40 : Anonymous2021/10/29 16:09 ID: hij0z6q



41 : Anonymous2021/10/29 20:52 ID: hik89sd



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