The combat of Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix deserves way, way more recognition

1 : Anonymous2021/03/06 21:24 ID: lzbih4

I think the game can be just as deep with its moveset than games like Devil May Cry. No, I'm not talking about combo fluff. I mean, they can be interesting to watch, but they only show off finger gymnastics. They don't actually add anything to the actual combat or the goal of an action game: beat the game as efficiently as possible. The latter of which is what I am speaking about in regards to Kingdom Hearts. Sora's moveset is full of useful combat options which are all relevant in specific scenarios. Its only real problem is that it's probably too easy, unless we're talking about the postgame, or level 1 critical as a whole. But before anyone says anything about ''if you've got to restrict yourself to find depth in a game, then it isn't deep'', then the same can be said about most other action games, really. Take God Hand, for example. While not available at all times, the God Hand is just ridiculous. Tons of free damage with full invincibility, which resembles KH2's limits in a way. Also IIRC the God Hand's bar refills automatically over time. Or heck, you can take your time earning currency in DMC to buy Holy Waters and healing items, which break the game in half. And there's many other examples of this

2 : Anonymous2021/03/06 23:50 ID: gq1j4ud

They don't actually add anything to the actual combat

They add variety.

3 : Anonymous2021/03/06 23:00 ID: gq19lzc

KH2 combat is good, but you're really not making much sense with all these comparisons to pure action games like DMC.

ID: gq1ah9v

Explain. The core of the gameplay of KH2 is the combat, i.e. the action. Besides, both games are about destroying your foes using i-frames, cancels, hit properties, looping, launchers, crowd control, etc. which is something both of those games have. Just because they're different genres doesn't mean they're completely incompatible

4 : Anonymous2021/03/07 00:28 ID: gq1qev1

They don't add anything to the action combat or the goal of an action game: beat the game as efficiently as possible.

I very much disagree. This 'combo fluff' enables strong players to demonstrate their creativity and judgement.

DMC is essentially a score attack game. The goal is to display your mastery of the character and the mechanics by stringing together long, varied combo chains—to earn loads of Stylish points and S-rank every mission. The true spirit of the game is to be stylish. It's why one of my favourite DMC players is Koudai.T. He doesn't rush to kill the boss as quickly as possible; he rarely repeats patterns and defeats Vergil cinematically, with the flair of the character he's playing, because that's what the game tries to incentivise you to do.

ID: gq3k35h

creativity and judgement

Never said they didn't take skill or weren't creative. DMC is being marketed as a Stylish Action game, but if we are to compare it to other games, it's unfair to do so for the stylish aspect, or else only Bayo can compare. What do you think about the word 'action'? I don't know about you, but I don't think about keeping an enemy in the air for minutes. I think 'swift'. 'To the point'. Combos are the opposite of killing an enemy as fast as possible, and as such, should not be used if we are to compare the proper action to other action games.

If you still feel combos are not irrelevant to efficiency, by all means, link to a faster and easier to execute video against this thing using combos:

Besides, if it is about getting high ranks, combos can actually penalize you for doing so, because one of the metrics is "clear time". If you take too much time doing all that, there is a chance you won't get SS ranks. And also, there are much easier and faster ways to get ranks. IIRC just Spiral spam your way through the game in 3. And in 5, just use Faust. Simple.

As for creativity, no upgrade runs plus SS ranks usually take far more of that

5 : Anonymous2021/03/07 02:18 ID: gq21lei

I love KH2FM+’s combat, it’s one of my favorite games of all time and I replay it constantly due to how fun it is. Between summons, magic, drive forms, abilities and blocking/dodging you can do so much. I’ve always maintained that FF games should take a look at KH’s combat in order to make the good action RPG games they keep taking 10 years to make.

Plus like you said, there is versatility in its challenges. You wanna do a Kingdom Key only run? Go ahead! Itemless? Critical Lv1? No magic, No summons? Go ahead! It’s so much fun finding out new strategies for each new boss, miniboss, or event fight. Although you do find out just how many bosses are pretty much gimmicks. Still, incredibly fun to play and to watch.

ID: gq3lbi1

Thanks, you explained it pretty well.

6 : Anonymous2021/03/07 13:04 ID: gq3dp82

I actually agree with you that long training dummy combos aren't the ultimate metric of greatness in action games. However you are arguing against things people haven't said yet for half the post.

I do want to get around to playing KH2FM, heard a lot of good things about critical mode as an action game experience.

ID: gq3mu13

I seriously recommend playing it. The OP may come off as if I'm a DMC or God Hand hater, far from that. I love those games, they're all excellent action games. And I think KH2FM hangs with those

If you have a lot of experience with action games on your belt, I suggest playing on Critical Mode first. It's not actually that hard once you get the hang of it (which shouldn't take long). After you beat the game, I recommend doing a level 1 critical run. It's imo the best way to experience the game and appreciate it as an action game for what it is.

7 : Anonymous2021/03/07 17:37 ID: gq45yef

I’ve always preferred KH1’s combat. It’s slower and more punishing. You could say it’s more Souls-like in that regard, but it also rewards careful gameplay with extra experience.

That said, KH2 does a lot of great things. It takes away the clunky movement while still providing a lot of combat options.

ID: gq49v9b

1 is good, but what I don't like is the MP system in how it handles the healing. With Second Chance, MP Rage and Leaf Bracer, you're pretty much unkillable. Having MP Rage on means that you will always get 1 MP to heal yourself, and Leaf Bracer prevents you from getting hit in the process. 1 is harder than 2 on Proud, but 2 has Critical. Also, 2 handles level 1 critical runs much better, since in 1 you don't get essential stuff like combo or finisher modifiers, or even Guard. You're stuck with a very basic Sora for the whole game, meanwhile in 2 everything gets handed to you for progressing through the game, not via levels

8 : Anonymous2021/03/07 06:02 ID: gq2mnjk

Yeah, KH2 is actually a pretty good action game. I think people didn't given enough credit to it's combat just because it qualify more as an rpg.

I think the combat animation is at the top along with God of War among PS2 games. The technical input maybe not as complex as DMC games, but f** it I play hack and slash games for the flashy combos.

ID: gq3lp71

To be honest, KH2 puts more emphasis on the action than the RPG aspects. For example, look at level 1 runs. There is a system in place that prevents players from doing too little damage as the game goes on. Why is this? The game automatically scales Sora's damage output accordingly depending on the world's Battle Level. No need to level up at all to not do chip damage. And increasing your stats past 90 or something doesn't do you literally any good. DMC also has RPG aspects in a way, in how players can level up Styles in 3

9 : Anonymous2021/03/07 17:30 ID: gq454vl

Did they change the rolling/dodging in KH2Final mix? BC I really hate how it worked in the base game.

1 thing I will give credit to KH2 for for is the way the magic can blend into the melee combat. The only other non KH game I've played that does it well is Kingdoms of Amalur.

ID: gq4a4u5

There wasn't a dodge roll in base KH2, just Quick Run. It got added in FM and HD rereleases, though

10 : Anonymous2021/03/07 09:33 ID: gq30ra3

They don't actually add anything to the actual combat or the goal of an action game: beat the game as efficiently as possible.

That's not the goal of character action games. It's about style and creative expression. Playing DMC and just trying to be as "efficient as possible" is like playing an open world game and just rushing through the main story.

ID: gq3kep5

What does character action even mean? The games aren't even marketed as such. And if it is about creative expression, as you say, why is efficiency a 'wrong way' to play? What if I want to express myself using the game's combat system to be efficient (like every good action game ever made)?

11 : Anonymous2021/03/07 06:25 ID: gq2oiip

Is it really? Because I'm playing the first one and the unpleasant combat and platforming are making me not want to finish the game

ID: gq2u8qv

Honestly, KH1 and KH2 play like completely different games. KH2 has much crisper combat with more options and the platforming element is basically gone minus an optional element. I enjoy a few things about KH1, but it is incredibly clunky.

ID: gq3ocf6

2 has more snappy combat, but 1 still has a good deal of depth

You shouldn't just mash your way to victory (even if you are capable of doing so), just be efficient with your tools, and you will have a different perspective about the game. Fire is a long range projectile, so its niche is to snipe foes from far away. Blizzard is a shotgun, so its niche is to blast foes from a certain range to hit them all. Thunder is an overhead AoE, so its niche is like Blizzard's in a way, crowd control, but it takes more MP. Gravity is great as it is an HP% based attack and ignores damage caps, so its niche is to use it against high HP foes. Stop... well, I shouldn't have to explain this. Aero is a defensive tool.

I'll let you figure out how to get the best out of summons

12 : Anonymous2021/03/06 22:09 ID: gq0yvwp

It's great.


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