Some one can correct me if I'm wrong or understood it the wrong way. But 1 interesting thing I took away from their latest video today "How Motherboards Work". They got into the topic of Daisy Chain Ram Configuration. And how in Daisy Chain, the line connection from the cpu memory controller, will go to A1 and B1 of the Ram Configuration and then after it "looks" into A1 and B1 the connection will bounce to A2 and B2. It is important for the Ram to be in A2 and B2 because the connection from the CPU will always end in A2 and B2 and if nothing is there, the Frequency will bounce off the empy dimm slot and potentially cause "noise Interface" back into the lined connection to the CPU, that's why most Motherboard manufacturers instruct in the manual to place the ram sticks in A2 and B2.
The main thing that I took away in a Daisy Chain Configuration, is that the memory controller from the CPU will go into A1 and B1, and then it goes into A2 and B2. Thus having a Ram stick in every single slot will actually gradually slow down the Ram/or memory controller in the cpu, because it will have a task to do in each dimm slot it checks. Since most motherboards have a Daisy Chain Configuration, it would be the most optimal for majority of people to have 2 Dual RANK Ram Sticks instead of 4, unless your Ram sticks are Single RANK
I believe it's still more optimal to have 4 sticks of SINGLE RANK 8gb stick Versus 2 SINGLE RANK 8gb sticks. But having 2 DUAL RANK sticks is the most optimal and with 4 DUAL RANK sticks of Ram it will actually slightly slow down your ram in a Daisy Chain Ram Configuration.
I've personally always have not been super confident if you could have 4 sticks of Double Rank ram and this video really helped me And gave me a light bulb, so I thought I would share.
ryzen wants 4 ranks total for best efficiency, eithwe 4 sticks of single rank 8 or 16gb or 2 sticks of dual rank 16 or 32gbID: gsnp6hm
Yes, I agree.ID: gso3yk6
How can I tell if my ram is single or dual rank?ID: gsq3aal
ryzen wants 4 ranks total for best efficiency
So does Intel:
It's been a thing for years on both AMD and Intel.ID: gsr317q
4 sticks of single rank will only give you dual rank in dual channel. You need 4 sticks of dual rank memory to achieve quad rank in dual channel.ID: gsr51tx
that is incorrect, 4 sticks of single rank in dual channel WILL give you 4 ranks in 2 channels 4 sticks of dual rank ram will give you 8 ranks total in 2 channels and stress your memory controller so much you will be lucky to hit 1800fclk for a xmp3600mhz 4x16 kit. i do a lot of ram oc, 4xdual rank high clocked kits like the 16gb b-die are generally meant for overclocking on hedt (like threadripper) that use 4 channels as 8 ranks in 4 channels is a sweetspoot for overclocking IF there. This is why performance ooc motherboards for am4 like the msi meg x570 unify use only 2 ram slots for 2x16 dual rank b-die and why the single rank 16gb micron die kits are so god damned hard to find right now because if you want 4x16 in 4 ranks and be able to oc fclk over 2000 on zen 3 with it you need those kits and while micron doesnt scale in the timings so well as samsung, untill samsung releases something as amazing as b-die with 16gb chiplets its all we really got for zen 3 top performance ram
Correct me if I'm wrong but what from I've remember daisy chain works better with 2 sticks of ram while T topo works better with all 4 slots filled?ID: gspn9sh
It's more like, T-top works better with 4, daisy chain doesn't really care.ID: gspsooe
No, it's still easier for your IMC to handle 4 sticks with T-topology. They are usually good enough to handle 4 sticks in Daisy Chain at speeds people care about though so yes, Daisy Chain is usually the better choice for most users.ID: gspzqp1
Yes, that's exactly what I took away from this video and since I feel like most motherbaords are daisy chained I felt compelled to post about it
The gains from rank interleaving will easily be greater than anything lost as a consequence of daisychain.ID: gspvxfi
Especially when you can't really push above 3800-4000 MT/s on Zen 2/3 anyway so pushing clocks higher isn't necessarily even an option without taking a large latency hit.
All I know is that on every motherboard I've ever owned, Intel or AMD, slots A1 B1 have been absolute garbage that often don't even allow my system to boot with just XMP settings.ID: gsq01j9
Yea, you don't want to use A1 and B1 for the noise frequency bouncing back into the lined connection to the CPU as the connection will always finish in A2 and B2 and if nothing is in there, then you risk a noise reflecting backing into the lined connection. Well according to the video posted in the source link
2 dimm had been a thing with 4c Intel.
1080p Fps chasing with a top tier gpu in some titles you can gain or lose performance based on ram speed and latency.
1440p you throw gains out the window, which is what I consciously did when I dumped my 1080p monitor and focused on 1440p a year ago. Just tired of dicking around with parts bench racing pissing away a lot of $ for little gain.
Most people won't see worthwhile $ vs fps gains unless they meet a lot of conditions due to a 1080ti base level of gpu performance being a bottleneck to fps increase ramping up ram speed or lowering latency.
Back when ddr4 3000 ish kits were being dumped cheap for 3600 kid after the zen2 launch I'd grab ram for kids 1st pc builds for my buddies under $50 for 16gb. Their parents weren't going to exceed 5700xt/1080ti/2070S performance anytime soon. Cpu wasn't going to be upgraded to ipc spec beyond a 2600 before socket change.
I take BZs content with a grain of salt since he completely ignores software as a make or break modifier to hardware in use cases that net more than a benchmark score is a very narrow ideal condition.
A poor video from LTT:
1) I'll state the obvious and say that doubling your ram from 16 to 32GB is a significant upgrade if you do things like, I don't know, use Google Chrome, or play games with high texture quality, or leave apps open while you game. Telling people to buy a board with two DIMM slots, or recommending that vendors only supply two, is terrible advice. May as well tell board vendors to only ship one SATA port or one NVMe slot. The only ones which don't have four slots are $60 mATX boards and overpriced $500 overclocking boards, the former to cut costs and the latter to appeal to extreme overclockers chasing records.
2) They gave a bizarre example in order to contrive their wire length demonstration. Virtually nobody is running DDR4-5000 memory; the most common enthusiast straps are 3200 through to 3800, while a small minority purchase 4000-4400 - pointlessly, I should add.
3) Boards also now run higher spec PCIe from the CPU to the chipset, because of things like USB 3.2 gen 2, extra NVMe PCIe slots, and other things that, erm, an end-user might actually need. Edit: and Thunderbolt, which Linus Himself loves so dearly.
4) Nobody except a competitive overclocker should be wasting their time with a $400+ dual DIMM board. It doesn't matter if dual DIMM is "faster" with CPUs that only support dual-channel memory; the performance impact on gaming is negligible, and you'll only see a small difference in workloads which are memory bandwidth and latency sensitive. The main benefit is overclocking RAM or tuning latency, which does not matter on Zen 2/3 anyway as you'll get the the same performance with DDR4-3200 CL14 as DDR4-4400 CL18, due to the way InfinityFabric ratios work.
5) Of course Asus will say "you don't need more than two DIMM slots". They charge a premium for their dual DIMM slot overclocking boards (the kind demonstrated in the video), while also saving money as you need to run half the traces from the CPU socket to the DIMM slots.
They got the facts right but did a poor job interpreting what they'd seen in the other videos.ID: gsoq2lr
1) They didn't say that there's no benefit from 32GB of ram, I don't know where you got that from.
They also did not tell people to buy a board with 2 slots, they simply stated the fact only having 2 slots would be better from an engineering point of view, and the vast majority of people never add more sticks later. They said based on those 2 facts people should be more open to the idea of having the option of a 2 slot board.
2) You completely misunderstood that example. The speed itself was irrelevant, they did never say 5000 MHz was common or optimal or anything like that, they were simply talking about the units used to describe ram speed (MHz and MT/s).
3) Not sure what your point is here. How does this fact make their video bad?
4) Same again, why does this make the video bad?
5) Again, nothing to do with how good the video is. Asus saying you only need 2 slots is a fact, and the video didn't say "run out and buy a 2 slot Asus board," it said 2 slot boards should be a mainstream (ie. not enthusiast Asus board) option.
They got the facts right but did a poor job interpreting what they'd seen in the other videos.
The "other videos" they watched were about VRM, which is the one topic you didn't find fault with. It's really starting to seem like you didn't actual listen to anything they said.ID: gsowy6n
Also, 8-12 layer pcbs is definitely not a requirement for pcie4.0. Looking at Gigabyte's x570 lineup (because they have nice layer count indicators), most are 6 layer, the Xtreme is 8 and the Gaming X and UD is 4. You usually only get those high layer counts on HEDT platforms.
I think the 5000 example was fine though, it made for a decent transition and someone is running it so whatever.
OP's conclusion is also wrong. The topology of a motherboard doesn't matter until you get to 4000MT/s+ as per buildzoid, which makes it a moot point for AMD because of IF. I haven't heard of any t-top 500 series mobo anyway except for the pre-production x570 Taichi samples.ID: gsprf2r
The ASRock X570 Pro4 is T-Topology, for some oddball reason.ID: gsojssl
I do enjoy LTT, however in this case I agree with every one of your points. I will also point out that mid range/upper range boards are not just for overclockers. Some people need the 3xnvme slots, or need to use the second PCIE x16 slot due to their setup etc etc etc. It is the crazy aorus extreme, MSI godlike, Asus dark hero, etc that offer nothing extra for double the price, other then a tiny bit better VRM and cooling. I believe those top tier boards are ONLY for overclockers.ID: gspvlk9
Hell no.ID: gsqxhls
Well from plenty of tests I have seen AMD 3000 and 5000 series benefit around %3-%5 speeds by having all dimm slots populated, as opposed to only using 2. I can not speak much for Intel, but I do believe they get a slight boost using all dimm slots too tho it is far less. Paper VS real world testing, there will always be a difference.ID: gso3qxm
by having all dimm slots populated
This is not from having the DIMM slots populated, it is from having a different number of memory ranks.
Populating or removing DIMMs is not the only way to change the amount of memory ranks.ID: gsnkjb2
Really? All the times I asked here people told me to go for 2 sticks vs 4. Oh well.ID: gsnn7vn
From what I have concluded. 4 SINGLE RANK stick or 2 DUAL RANK sticks.ID: gsnkzfx
My research on Ryzen 7/9 showed TWO dual-rank sticks to be the best... FYI.ID: gsnztik
It depends on how much money you are willing to spend as for example if you plan to get 16gb, buying 4 sticks with 4gb for a 4 slot motherboard will likely not be that good in terms of future upgradeability compared to buying a 2x8gb set and not to mention, also more expensive too. Now the performance might increase a bit in some tasks if both are the same speed and latency but to be honest, it would be better to either just get a fastelatency 2*8gb set, better cpu cooler for better oc, and/or better other components instead.
If you do have the money though and are satisfied that the rest of the build will last you for quite a while including your peripherals, than for sure go ahead and get ideally like a 4x8gb or higher capacity kit If want/need as the 4 sticks have been tested to work nicely with eachother at the factory or atleast buy more of the exact same model ram, otherwise mixing brands, speeds, and/or latency could potentially lead to instability issues.ID: gsnlcix
I can fill in a few of the gaps you are missing however I am still no expert. Say you have a 8gb stick 3600 MHZ CL16, and a stick of 16gb 3600 MHZ CL16, the same sticks just different sizes, which is faster? the 8GB stick will always be faster even if they have the same speed ratings/latency, timings same brand.ID: gsnmcph
This is actually in-correct. They are lot of tests done on AMD 3000/5000 series and they provide best results with 2 DIMM compared to 4 DIMM. The memory controller has lot to work with 4 DIMM compared to 2 DIMM and you can verify these results by using same CPU. The difference is negligible when we use 8GB RAM Sticks and you will notice performance dep as the each RAM Stick size goes up (4x16 GB, 4x 32GB). Once again if the speed is below 3400 MHz, its fine. as the speed goes up, you will -ve impactID: gsnq7rm
Definitely open to your point of view ! Maybe you where referring to 4 single rank sticks giving that performance increase versus 2 single rank sticks. But I think as far as dual rank goes, 2 would be bestID: gsnqa37
This is only if they are single rank sticks. 2x dual rank sticks equal 4x1 single rank sticks in performance except they are easier for the CPUs memory controller to.drive.ID: gsnqqq4
Yeh that seems to be the case. I am using these 4x8gb single rank sticks, according to CPU-Z.ID: gspuvhe
That is not specific to Ryzen 3000 and 5000. AMD actually made a blog post about it back in the early days of Ryzen 1000 series in 2017. Rank interleaving has been a thing well before that though.
I think the reason why people didn't talk about it more at the time was that fewer people had Ryzen 1000 and therefore fewer people read that post. Ram was also very expensive at the time so most people didn't spend $400-500 on 2x16 GB kits. 🙂 For those of us who did though, this wasn't news. Still, it's good that more people know about it now when actually making use of that knowledge can be done at a more reasonable price. 🙂
I´m running 4x16Gb dual rank sticks at 3600Mhz. Don´t think anything higher is worth it.
I used to have an x570 tomahawk from msi and it couldn´t run it at all it wouldn´t boot.
So just bought the aorus x570 master and after the latest bios update I pushed the fclock to 1800Mhz, and I´m running 64Gb DDR4-3600 CL17-19-19.ID: gsoigrd
is the new mobo t topology?ID: gsojek6
This is from theoverclocker.com
On the X570 AORUS MASTER, GIGABYTE has chosen what appears to be a daisy chain memory topology. What that means in practice is that, DRAM overclocking is great or better for two DIMM setups, but as a compromise will not work as well with all four DIMM slots are populated. At least that’s the theory anyway.
The odd thing is when one takes a look at the QVL, there is support for two and four DIMM operation for up to 4400MT/s. One will not be able to verify this as this support is stipulated for one particular ADATA XPG Spectrix 4400 kit but no reason to doubt this support. Where power is concerned, GIGABYTE is using a single phase VRM for the memory, which should be more than enough for any sort of DRAM overclocking or tuning.ID: gspedjg
MSI uses weird settings for DRAM.
I was able to run 3333 MHz B-Die on my Ryzen 1700 and I was able to run 3133 MHz RAM on my 2700x. So I put that Ryzen 1700 and that 3133 MHz RAM together for smol home server and I couldn't run anything higher than 2800 MHz. Even 2800 MHz would show 0 errors over night in HCI MemTest but crash Docker virtual machine. I knew I could run both CPU SOC and DRAM at faster frequency. So I set all the resistances to the same values that I used previously and bam! The RAM is working fine at 3000 MHz. It will throw some errors at 3066 MHz. But that's because I used T-topology Gigabyte K7 board before and I think 1700 is in some MSI B450 daisy chain board now.
Basically you had to play with settings and resistances/voltages I guess.ID: gspvhrn
Sounds like you ran into memory clock holes.
Buildzoid is THE KNOWLEDGE on this stuff. I bet he and Anthony could talk for some hours
biggest problem is I can never find the topology of my mobo... they didn't really mention it in the haswell days
Before clicking on this I was hoping it was an apology for how awful Armory Crate is.