- Unpopular Opinion: RPG’s need to start bringing back dedicated Classes & Roles instead of stripping them out and diluting the genre
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Laughs in 1st edition D&D.
ID: h2xb1ixID: h2xk145Munchkin players: "and because race and class are separate, I'm picking Hafling for my race"
ID: h2xc74cThat's actually an OD&D/BX/BECMI thing. 1e AD&D had separate race and class.
ID: h2xr99sThe best thing about Hero Quest is THE DWARF.
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I find it funny you are using Oblivion as an example which did not have dedicated classes or rolls. These just gave you higher starting values in certain areas and set certain skills you need to level, but you still could and were honestly encouraged to be a bit of a jack of all trades. Especially since leveling made enemies stronger, and you needed to level skills of their corresponding attributes to get a decent boost in that attribute (also funnily enough making it better to choose your favored attributes based off skills you didn't want to level)
Same is true for Fallout, the Bethesda RPG's have always been pretty friendly towards dabbling in everything.
ID: h2xl4qpOblivion was weird for me coming from Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate. It was weird to me that I could select mage in the very beginning and wind up being a sneaky archer towards the end.
ID: h2xqhcrEvery class was sneaky archer by the end.
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Games with dedicated classes are my absolute favorite. A game where I can play through it more than once doing something completely different is exactly what I look for.
ID: h2x7cqhPlease try Divinity: Origin Sin 2, if you haven't. It is the best. I am 300 hours in and on my 2nd playthrough, and I am finding so much content that I didn't on my first run and I am playing it so differently. Good stuff.
ID: h2xbusnI’ve only ever heard good things about that game I’ll have to check it out now thanks for the heads up!
ID: h2x9gg8A game where I can play through it more than once doing something completely different is exactly what I look for.
But, you can do this with undefined class roles, too. Nothing you're asking for is limited by defined or undefined class roles, other than the discipline to not always picks the same options.
ID: h2xegq7The problem is there's no incentive to restrict yourself. Sometimes it's good to have the game have barriers. It's not as fun/challenging when you know the only thing keeping you from picking the OP skills is your own choice.
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Why is fallout in your examples? Fallout has ALWAYS had a more generalist playstyle and not class focused at all. Absolutely none of the main titles have had anything remotely resembling a class.
ID: h2x79kmGood point, he's showing traits but traits are not the same as classes.
ID: h2x8z60Traits are just mild character variables, not even that significant.
It's just weird to be so pro class based RPGs and use Fallout as an example. It's one of the big RPGs thats first guilty of doing the whole "you can be whatever you want, jack of all trades" character.
It's as baffling to me as a guy saying "i want realistic car games back!" then in his slideshow of games he wants back it includes Twisted Metal. like wtf...
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Dedicated roles have basically never been a thing in single-player single-character rpgs like Fallout because roles are built for collaborative situations. Roles are things like "tank" or "healer", but the thing that defines those roles is that they can't do another role very well. Which makes it hard to play a game as a dedicated healer when you're the only character and being a healer means you're not suited to most of the game.
But dedicated roles have never actually gone away in RPGs in general. I mean, there's been actual DnD RPGs released for decades, Final Fantasy games, and a lot of MMORPGs have kept dedicated roles.
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For party focused RPGs, sure. Single player experiences without an inbuilt party focus don't have classes so that the player can make their character in a way that enables them to get through the game. Dragon Age: Origins was in your list of those that had class systems but it has one because it expects you to have a tank, 2 DPS, and a support. The first companion you get in the game is a tank or anti-mage DPS.
But games like Fallout don't have classes because it's not about an adventuring party tuned to fill specific combat roles. It's about one dude/gal and maybe their friend mucking about a deadly wasteland. Your character needs to be an adaptable survivor because if they're not they never would have made it to the story in the first place. There's a time and place for both, I think, is the point I'm trying to make.
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I don't disagree, but as an option.
I prefer custom classes myself, but if a class matches my playstyle, feel free to pitch it.
ID: h2x2gqpMy biggest gripe with Skyrim for example is that there’s no real incentive to roleplay because of the complete absence of a class system. The closest thing the game has to a class system are the skill stones and abiding by your own rules.
I love the game, don’t get me wrong but Roleplaying is almost non-existent. I have 300 hours on Skyrim but there’s a reason why I have 2000 hours on Oblivion, the latter of which was played with a different and distinct class
I might be looking too deep into it but a Rogue REALLY shouldn’t be as skilled as a Barbarian when it comes to wielding a two-handed Battle Axe
ID: h2x2st8Are there classes other than "stealth archer multiclassing into..." in Skyrim?
ID: h2x4p9wI have 300 hours on Skyrim but there’s a reason why I have 2000 hours on Oblivion, the latter of which was played with a different and distinct class
Isn't the best way to play Oblivion just picking all your major skills as things you don't want to use then leveling up everything you do want as minors?
ID: h2x68nqWait, how is a lack of defined classes a hindrance to roleplay? If you want to roleplay a pure mage in Skyrim, nothing's stopping you.
ID: h2x3x6cIf people could who sat around a table, rolling dice could role play, surely you can figure out how to role play in a huge game like Skyrim.
ID: h2xbruwI love Skyrim. Got 1000+ hours played. But I would hardly call it a RPG anymore. Most choices are either diluted compared to it's predessors or stream lined. Compare leveling up to Oblivion for example, Oblivion's leveling felt more meaninful and that you had more choice in building your character. Or quests for example, too many times I got a quest forced on me when talking about a certain subject or reading a certain book. There wasn't much there either.
And I don't neccecarly dislike when there are no classes, but I end up playing my playthroughs the same way. Instead of picking a class and sticking with it.
My biggest issue with the elder scrolls series as a whole is that it got more streamlined with every itteration. Compare the skills for example between one game and the next. Each next game stripped some skills, i.e. less choice. With Skyrim, they even went as far to remove attributes completly. Or with quests, with Morrowind, there was no marker, I had to figure out where to go and I always thought that the journal did an good job at giving directions as well. Some may not like the system, but I prefer it to a marker. With a marker you go from point A to B. With dirextions you can get lost and find other places. I also find that I had less choice with what quests I would pick up and which to leave.
So I tend to agree with you on the no roleplaying part in Skyrim.
Again, I'm not hating on Skyrim. I love that game, but I always considered Skyrim to be a great, immersive adventure game, not an RPG.
Rant over.
ID: h2xdxc4Role-playing has always been about abiding by your own rules. Even in strict class-based RPGs, it's always been about abiding by your own rules. Heck, even in extremely restrictive TTRPGs like Heroquest, it's entirely up to the player how they want to play the character.
Also, as someone who played an extremely sneaky, plated, mage in Oblivion, I'm extremely dubious of your claim that Oblivion had dedicated classes or roles.
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Odd seeing Oblivion and Fallout NV here as those are great examples of not having dedicated classes or roles. I love being able to role play my character exactly how I want like a table top RPG rather than other games where some role is forced on me.
Like why is it that just because I'm a wizard I can't pick up a sword? Do I have arthritis? Why can't I be a buff wizard? Or why can't I be a sniper who has poor eyesight and needs to wear glasses?
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Divinity: Original Sin 2 is not that old and is a very classic style RPG with very customizable classes. I highly suggest, I think it may be my favorite RPG of all time.
ID: h2xeducGreat game. I think OP is asking for the opposite though, Divinity is very flexible with thier classes and allow a character to fullfill any roll you really want, and you can shift that roll as the game goes on or with what skills they learn. OP seems to be asking for a much more rigid system
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Kingdoms of amalur handles this well. So the more generalist you are the harder it is to get deeper into skill trees vs specializing, which also affects the tier of armors you can equip.
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Dragons dogma probably had a great mix. With room to explore play styles and min maxing roles organically.
ID: h2x5jo3Such a good game. I love how bleak the world is. Fun tip for you: wolves fear fire.
ID: h2xadyvSomething wrong, Arisen?
ID: h2x50rfJust started that game for the first time, really liking it so far
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Mmm enjoys an Oblivion throwback Maybe.
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I disagree. Not that rpgs to bring back classes and roles, but I disagree with them being gone. I see you referenced Skyrim in a comment here, that game came out in 2012 and the Elder Scrolls has never been the go to game for "classes and roles" in rpgs. I don't mean to sound like a dick here, but I think you're just playing the wrong rpgs lately.
ID: h2x4anjWhat would be the right RPGs?
ID: h2x6uybPillars of Eternity, Divinity: Original Sin, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and Baldur's Gate 3 all have dedicated classes I think.
ID: h2x6ucvSolasta
ID: h2x5z85It's true. Off the top of my head I can probably list of 5-8 rpgs that are either out or coming out that employ a class based system. But most of these are CRPGs (Baldurs gate, POE etc)
To OP's point I would like to see some more AAA style RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout or Cyberpunk whatever, explore more of a class/profession based system. While I don't have an issue with games that allow you to customize your characters skills (prefer it sometimes). I feel like having a defined class can lead to more interesting abilities or more replayability.
ID: h2x4xztAny suggestions?
ID: h2xfo9fLike the other comment said, any old-school isometric RPG like Pillars of Eternity or Divinity Original Sin.
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Dont hate too hard, but ehat are all of these games? I recognize Oblivion and Fallout, but not the other ones
ID: h2xd717Vampire the masquerade bloodlines, mass effect 1 and dragon age origins. I’m a huge fane of bloodlines personally
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As someone who play GURPS: No.
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I agree. Playing as different classes who have different restrictions is a big incentive for replayability to me. I can't just "not pick" the most op skills to optimize myself. I want the game to put restrictions on me in that sense so I have a reason to try other things and play outside what would be my "comfort zone".
Though I would prefer a system like Oblivion, where you can also make your own custom class with picking what skills are your majors/minors.
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I don't disagree completely, but I do feel that given the choice between a rigid class system (emphasis on rigid) and a skill-focused classless one the classless system is going to be the better 90% of the time. That's mainly down to being able to craft the type of character you want to play.
If you'll forgive me going to tabletop for my examples, take D&D for instance. 5e has a little more flexibility with backgrounds, but 1e - 3.5e (or 3.75e if you want to count Pathfinder) made it very hard for, just as an example, a barbarian to know how to pick locks well. Which...why? What's stopping a barbarian from picking up a pair of lockpicks and practicing with them till he's good at it? Or, an even more blatant example, why can't a wizard who's frequently in combat learn how to use a sword in case he runs out of magic?
And, worse than the restrictions classes place on the playstyle is the fact that they tend to lead to cookie-cutter characters.
The fixes for those problems are to either make the class-based system less rigid (which 5e has done and 3e did to a lesser extent), remove classes entirely and focus on skills instead (like GURPS), or make the class a minor part of your character (think V:tM clans).
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Dragon Age Origins is the best fantasy RPG hands down. I played every backstory and beat the game several times. All the sequels were garbage though. Even inquisition even though it took steps back in the right direction, but still tried to be too flashy.
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I agree. I loved Final Fantasy Tactics because of its job system. And I had about 500 hours into Oblivion, and less than half that in Skyrim.
A dedicated class system provides much more replayability than custom classes, which usually always end up the same unless you put real effort into being different instead of good.
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Hard disagree.
First of all, Dungeons and Dragons has tons of classes, so if you're looking for a game with a classful advancement system, go nuts.
Second, having the ability to go a-la carte with your character design doesn't mean you can't make an archetypal character. It means you're not obliged to do so.
Third, the whole concept of character classes is really an attempt to make it easy for novices to approach a game and reproduce an archetype of a character from fiction.
引用元:https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/o77mvf/unpopular_opinion_rpgs_need_to_start_bringing/
1st edition player: “I’m picking Elf as my class.”
Modern player: “What? That.. no.”